Old School Recording (One mic, One track)

timinbovey

New member
Been poking around the web for a few days and mostly finding that no one seems to be doing what I plan on doing.

Going back to old school. One mic, one track. Mono. Then cut lacquer records from the tape.

I've been using the old school gear for decades. I have at hand full track mono reel to reel machines in fine working order, and a collection of various
record cutting lathes from the 1930's - 1950's.

I've studied the techniques used in the PBS special "American Epic" where they used one mic with a direct to disc recorder restored from 1925 to record
a ton of contemporary musicians with excellent results. I've also studied the work of Joe Bussard at Fonotone Records, the last commercial producer of
78's who recorded everything one mic straight into the mic input of a full track Ampex 601.

The intent is recording small groups, from solo guys picking, picking and singing, duets or pickers and singers, small groups (bass, guitar, banjo, jug, harmonica, etc...)
to early jazz arrangements (think 1920'a). Back then this was always done with one mic, one track.

Look up some of their work. The quality is amazing.

I'm kicking around mic ideas. The folks at The 78 Project used one Shure 51 for everything. Joe at Fonotone, based on all the studio pictures I can find did most of it with
an Electrovoice 664, although in one interview he mentions an "old ribbon mic" but doesn't elaborate. The American Epic Sessions used a few different condenser mics from the 1930's, depending on the player.

I have a variety of vintage mics. Just wondering what modern recordists might choose to use in the instance of recording a small group (1-6) acoustic players and or singers.
Condenser mics are out. Recording direct to to disc or full track vintage tape provides no phantom power, and I want to stick to "old school" and as basic as I can. The goal
is to rely on simplicity of technology and the technique of the players to make the recordings.

If you search Yotube for "fonotone" you can listen to lots of those recordings, and if you search for "american epic the sessions" you can watch many of those recordings as they are recorded. I'm especially fond of the Jack White number.

Is anyone around here doing this sort of thing?

Tim in Bovey
 
I was intrigued enough and wanted to soak up' some of perspectives to be learned from the various examples on the PBS DVD ("American Epic" ?) Some of the tracks were very nice and demonstrated many cool aspects of it.
Then others, IMHO :>) were seriously flawed, in various ways. Some were in (of) very well understood basics. And, where you were making a recording, the path ought to have been- 'Stop. This needs to be fixed. Some (maybe only a few IIRC).. were good clearly illustrating limitations!

One repeated 'mistake missed (and a limitation).. was a real basic.

You simply can not 'mix (fix) level balances between performers simply by moving (some) no matter how far back into the room -if the room is too dam small- for the attenuation needed. :rolleyes: See 'Critical Distance'
'The distance at which the sound pressure level of the direct sound and the reverberant sound are equal when dealing with a directional source. Or in this case 'into a mic'.
There is one example of (given 'stuck with the room'.. Sorry. Multi micing, read 'other technology' :>) kicks booty'. :)
 
Hi Tim, there was a programme on BBC TV a few months ago about a guy recording direct to disc using a gravity powered lathe.

The microphone was only slightly smaller than the 'Meat Safe' used for the very first electric recordings. As you say, the quality was remarkably good but a good deal of that must I think be down to the consummate skill of the musicians?

I shall look for the DVD and see if the programme is still available on BBC iPlayer.
BBC - Arena: American Epic - Media Centre

Dave.
 
Hi Tim, there was a programme on BBC TV a few months ago about a guy recording direct to disc using a gravity powered lathe.

The microphone was only slightly smaller than the 'Meat Safe' used for the very first electric recordings. As you say, the quality was remarkably good but a good deal of that must I think be down to the consummate skill of the musicians?

I shall look for the DVD and see if the programme is still available on BBC iPlayer.
BBC - Arena: American Epic - Media Centre

Dave.
Same same as on PBS.
 
I like this idea...a lot.

Well, yes, sort of! Despite my 72 years I am wedded to the digital technology. Many years ago, in another life I battled to get a decent dynamic range onto tape. Much later my son did much the same trying to build tracks on a Teac A3440. We both found the digital revolution a terrific solution and saver of time. (he still hankers after some elusive 'vintage tape sound'. I don't.)

But, also many years, ago I was very impressed with the sound of some Direct Cut jazz but the V15/Technics/SME/Quad/ BIG Castle speakers might have had a bearing! Similarly the sound that guy got on those DC discs WAS impressive but then the bog S TV/DVD sound capture was not exactly Abbey Road! (given my already stated respect for the musicians, I DO hope they had a U87, better a co-I pair, hidden somewhere running into an RME or better!)

So, interesting? For sure. Worth the time and trouble? Don't know but there are worse ways to spend one's money and time!

Dave.
 
I mean, not on the regular, but I certainly have done this. In fact, I often reply to those ubiquitous "I want to record guitar and vocals at the same time but there's bleed everywhere" threads that they should just use one mic and not suck.

It is all about the performance. Everybody involved has to be sensitive to their own dynamics and how they are affecting the mix. You'd think that would be a given anyway, but...

The room, of course, is important. A great sounding room will make a great performance into a really special aural experience. OTOH - even if the room really sucks, if the give you a great performance of great material, everybody will just be glad it got recorded at all.


Edit - To be clear, I'm talking only about the one mic part of this. I do not share your gear fetish.
 
Random thoughts.. It's interesting, but as others remark, it takes a skillful bunch of players who don't screw up and can actually listen to each other. Of course there are people still around like that, but a lot have gotten used to the single player/track approach. Our expectation of live recordings is pretty high anymore - even for those that have that "old school" vibe. You'll probably still want to keep your razor blades sharp and splicing-tape handy.

I assume you've got a good room for recording, since folks will have to hear the mix as it's being captured, in effect, i.e., so they know they have to get quieter/louder.

The single mic thing is a requirement for some Bluegrass competitions. I'm amazed at the gymnastics those folks go through to have the parts weave in and out smoothly. And, there's the Tiny Desk stuff at NPR. Not old school technology, but a lot is done with a single M-S mic.

I guess I'd start with trying to find players that can work with a single mic, and worry about the old-school hardware once you know it'll be worth your time.
 
I loved that pbs program but I might mention that you have to give the production/editing crew that did the audio for the programs credit as I'm positive that all the recordings they used spent a lot of time ITB and given the best treatment for the best sound. Props to the pros who pulled it off. A great performance in a great room with a GREAT mic and pre is cool, but with one mic , arrangement is key. I like to use minimal mic setups at times(one drum mic, one vocal mc, one "band" mic, but I suppose using just one mic would definitely eliminate phase issues
 
Funny enough I have recently been playing in a Bluegrass band and we are using one mic live, a AT4033. We do cheat a little and DI the (my) double bass.

Alan.
 
Yeah I imagine trying to get enough level with a double bass in anything more than a 3 piece with one mic would be especially tricky.
 
Funny enough I have recently been playing in a Bluegrass band and we are using one mic live, a AT4033. We do cheat a little and DI the (my) double bass.
Alan.

I'd like to ask what kinds of venue? My acoustic band -small brew houses for example, have gravitated from; full acoustic, to 'Wayne yes bring you're amp we want your leads' up front', to add a single voc mic shared... to now everyone's got an amp ;)
I'd guess at least a large part of that was/is.. driven from the pub's noise levels.
 
I'd like to ask what kinds of venue?

We did the last show in a pub type venue with a good in house PA, with the right EQ it can get the volume up quite loud. We don't use any monitors so that feedback problem is out of the picture. We ask the audience to respect the 1 mic lower volume and if they want to talk to go into the other room of the venue, which they can still us from. The audience are there to see the band and get into the lower volume thing, in-fact they find it a refreshing change from what they usually deal with.

The other gigs have been private parties outside and home concerts, where people listen to what we do. It is however quite amazing how loud you can get the mic before feedback, of course they are happy to have my input being a sound engineer both live and studio regarding eq. I have mixed other similar bands using 1 or very few mics myself.

Alan.
 
We did the last show in a pub type venue with a good in house PA, with the right EQ it can get the volume up quite loud. We don't use any monitors so that feedback problem is out of the picture. We ask the audience to respect the 1 mic lower volume and if they want to talk to go into the other room of the venue, which they can still us from. The audience are there to see the band and get into the lower volume thing, in-fact they find it a refreshing change from what they usually deal with.

The other gigs have been private parties outside and home concerts, where people listen to what we do. It is however quite amazing how loud you can get the mic before feedback, of course they are happy to have my input being a sound engineer both live and studio regarding eq. I have mixed other similar bands using 1 or very few mics myself.

Alan.
Excellent! Thank you.
 
I have spent some time talking with the man who restored that recording equipment and is seen operating the recorder in that PBS program. We have also exchanged lengthy technical emails. The sound you hear in that program is the sound of the finished record, with absolutely NO post production. No eq, no noise removal, nothing. That is RAW sound from the disc. A large part of the whole point was to show how good the recordings were. They sounded terrible to most consumers of the time because the playback equipment (mostly an acoustic wind up phonograph) simply could not reproduce what was in the grooves. I had originally contacted him through the shows producers because I did not believe the sound we heard could have possible come from the recorded disc. It did. And it wasn't doctored.

Tim in Bovey
 
I have spent some time talking with the man who restored that recording equipment and is seen operating the recorder in that PBS program. We have also exchanged lengthy technical emails. The sound you hear in that program is the sound of the finished record, with absolutely NO post production. No eq, no noise removal, nothing. That is RAW sound from the disc. A large part of the whole point was to show how good the recordings were. They sounded terrible to most consumers of the time because the playback equipment (mostly an acoustic wind up phonograph) simply could not reproduce what was in the grooves. I had originally contacted him through the shows producers because I did not believe the sound we heard could have possible come from the recorded disc. It did. And it wasn't doctored.

Tim in Bovey

Yes Tim, that was my experience with the direct cut jazz. I am NOT a fan of vinyl but a really good disc can have a dynamic range of 70dB and a REALLY good playback system distortion at just about 1%THD at max velocity. Tape, without NR will worsen those figures considerably but as you say, the VAST majority of playback systems will not be anywhere near optimal.

24bit 44.1kHz digital cut straight to disc should sound bloody good but 'tis fekkin lot of bother when a 16 bit CD will sound better!

Dave.
 
Been poking around the web for a few days and mostly finding that no one seems to be doing what I plan on doing.

Going back to old school. One mic, one track. Mono. Then cut lacquer records from the tape.

I've been using the old school gear for decades. I have at hand full track mono reel to reel machines in fine working order, and a collection of various
record cutting lathes from the 1930's - 1950's.

I've studied the techniques used in the PBS special "American Epic" where they used one mic with a direct to disc recorder restored from 1925 to record
a ton of contemporary musicians with excellent results. I've also studied the work of Joe Bussard at Fonotone Records, the last commercial producer of
78's who recorded everything one mic straight into the mic input of a full track Ampex 601.

The intent is recording small groups, from solo guys picking, picking and singing, duets or pickers and singers, small groups (bass, guitar, banjo, jug, harmonica, etc...)
to early jazz arrangements (think 1920'a). Back then this was always done with one mic, one track.

Look up some of their work. The quality is amazing.

I'm kicking around mic ideas. The folks at The 78 Project used one Shure 51 for everything. Joe at Fonotone, based on all the studio pictures I can find did most of it with
an Electrovoice 664, although in one interview he mentions an "old ribbon mic" but doesn't elaborate. The American Epic Sessions used a few different condenser mics from the 1930's, depending on the player.

I have a variety of vintage mics. Just wondering what modern recordists might choose to use in the instance of recording a small group (1-6) acoustic players and or singers.
Condenser mics are out. Recording direct to to disc or full track vintage tape provides no phantom power, and I want to stick to "old school" and as basic as I can. The goal
is to rely on simplicity of technology and the technique of the players to make the recordings.

If you search Yotube for "fonotone" you can listen to lots of those recordings, and if you search for "american epic the sessions" you can watch many of those recordings as they are recorded. I'm especially fond of the Jack White number.

Is anyone around here doing this sort of thing?

Tim in Bovey

There is a whole series on Youtube about a place in England that does recording very similar to what you are trying to do. The studio is called SUGAR RAY'S VINTAGE RECORDING STUDIO, Wickford, Essex.
 
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