Monitoring with headphones

bouldersoundguy said:
No. Just, no. Even in an anechoic chamber with any kind of tweeter you want to use, there will be cross bleed. The direct path, not just reflections, from a speaker to the opposite ear is what you miss out on with headphones or earbuds.
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Okay I see what you mean by cross bleed. Of course no earbud or headphones replicate that, which is also why I compared the earbuds to a pair of headphones. So I guess I don't understand why you even mentioned it. Like saying an econo car isn't fast. It's not supposed to be/won't be. But the econo car still gets you from a --> b, and I think that's what some of us are saying here.

Fwiw, I don't find cross bleed to be a significant enough factor to plan for or adjust based on that alone. As someone else mentioned (RFR? Steen?) most playback is on equipment in environments that add more hurtles than they allow subtle things like cross bleed factors in mixing to matter. That's why monitor use, for me, is at the end. But it's rare now I find much wrong with my headphone mixes and it's become more habit than necessity. Mostly, the monitors confirm the lower end is where I want it since the headphones can't replicate the feel of sub frequencies, etc. Monitors are just another source for the mix to verify things, it's definitely not an end-all-be-all. Nor should it be for the reasons previously mentioned (listener playback sources).
 
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Pinky said:
Fwiw, I don't find cross bleed to be a significant enough factor to plan for or adjust based on that alone.
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That's the thing, though. It's a pretty huge factor and people generally aren't aware of it or don't think about it.

Put it this way. If it was possible to have a dividing wall coming out of your forehead so left eye can't see right side and right eye can't see left side, you'd probably fall over.
It's not really that different.

As an example, there was one guy on this forum who asked me to critique his mix.
I commented that I didn't like his wishy washy phasy effect on his acoustic guitar because it made the mix sound thin and powerless.
He hadn't a clue what I was talking about.

He mixed on headphones and didn't realise that some processing he did more or less made his acoustic guitar cancel out.

I think it was Garww who started talking about how an environment can introduce more issues but I'm not sure Garww gets it.
Any environment can. Any headphones will.

I still say it's entirely possible to get a decent mix on headphones. This is a stonewall argument or anything. Just simple fact that somehow got out of hand.
 
Steenamaroo said:
That's the thing, though. It's a pretty huge factor and people generally aren't aware of it or don't think about it.

Put it this way. If it was possible to have a dividing wall coming out of your forehead so left eye can't see right side and right eye can't see left side, you'd probably fall over.
It's not really that different.

As an example, there was one guy on this forum who asked me to critique his mix.
I commented that I didn't like his wishy washy phasy effect on his acoustic guitar because it made the mix sound thin and powerless.
He hadn't a clue what I was talking about.

He mixed on headphones and didn't realise that some processing he did more or less made his acoustic guitar cancel out.

I think it was Garww who started talking about how an environment can introduce more issues but I'm not sure Garww gets it.
Any environment can. Any headphones will.

I still say it's entirely possible to get a decent mix on headphones. This is a stonewall argument or anything. Just simple fact that somehow got out of hand.
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I can usually hear phase issues on headphones, that's more a matter of someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Monitors won't likely help them until they (as you say) realize what's going on. But I do agree that it's easier sometimes to catch those things on monitors, which as I said is why you really can't do without them entirely. You cannot, however, say/believe that the *only* way to hear it is on monitors though. That's untrue.
 
It's still an additional layer of guess work.

I mean, you can take this as a + for headphones or a + for speakers but I just fired up two sine waves. One hard left, one hard right.
Flipped polarity of one.

On speakers the sound almost completely disappears. If I move around it comes and goes.
On headphones it's barely possible to tell the difference between the above and a single sine wave panned centre.

On headphones you're hearing things that may or may not be there and, in the ideal listening position, aren't there.

It's a fundamental irrefutable physical difference. Not an opinion or preference.
 
"
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Originally Posted by garww "It is the aural equivalent of putting blinders on a horse".

It is the same with speakers.



It's not".

I just described in #52 one instance of where I set up for no x-talk. It wasn't meant to be a case study, or, anything - just minimize the effect.

What types of dispersion are employed in your tweeters and midranges, BTW ?
 
Unless your left ear could hear nothing from the right speaker, and your right ear could hear nothing from the left speaker, it's not the same.
Even if you somehow managed to achieve that, this is ridiculous and pointless.
 
Steenamaroo said:
It's still an additional layer of guess work.

I mean, you can take this as a + for headphones or a + for speakers but I just fired up two sine waves. One hard left, one hard right.
Flipped polarity of one.

On speakers the sound almost completely disappears. If I move around it comes and goes.
On headphones it's barely possible to tell the difference between the above and a single sine wave panned centre.

On headphones you're hearing things that may or may not be there and, in the ideal listening position, aren't there.

It's a fundamental irrefutable physical difference. Not an opinion or preference.
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Yes in that test example of course the monitors would be the ideal.

If someone has stuff that far out of phase they have bigger problems the best monitors on the planet can't solve, and should probably just not bother with engineering. :p
 
Steenamaroo said:
Ah, I see. You don't understand how the extreme example relates to every day music.
That explains it.

Take my word for it. Garww too.
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No, I do get it. ;)

Ultimately I think it's because I avoid phase problems that I don't have to rely on monitors to find/reveal them. Only once in a past few years have I had an issue with a doubetracked acoustic which I originally detected on headphones but as you demonstrated ended up actually fixing with a plugin on my monitors (since that cancellation effect was best heard on them).

I appreciate you taking the time to explain clearly with a solid example why monitors matter in those situations.

The better bet is - avoid creating phase issues in the mix in the first place! :p

In case anyone's wondering this is the tool I ended up using on a bus that I passed the guitars through:

Phase Correction Plugin – InPhase | Waves

Sometimes what you say doesn't fall entirely on deaf ears Steen. :)
 
Pinky said:
No, I do get it. ;)

Ultimately I think it's because I avoid phase problems that I don't have to rely on monitors to find/reveal them. Only once in a past few years have I had an issue with a doubetracked acoustic which I originally detected on headphones but as you demonstrated ended up actually fixing with a plugin on my monitors (since that cancellation effect was bets heard on them).

I appreciate you taking the time to explain clearly with a solid example why monitors matter in those situations.

The better bet is - avoid creating phase issues in the mix in the first place! :p

In case anyone's wondering this is the tool I ended up using on a bus that I passed the guitars through:

Phase Correction Plugin – InPhase | Waves
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Fair points.
That's not to say that two completely unrelated instruments can't compliment/cancel/comb filter each other and the same would apply; headphones aren't necessarily going to tell you that but, yes,
experience and consciously avoiding such issues where possible goes a long long way. That's being kinda picky, too. How often is that actually going to present a big problem?

Sorry man. I think I misunderstood where you were coming from.
 
I don't think the message here is don't use headphones at all when mixing. It's that there are things you'll miss if you use only headphones to mix, and that mixes done on speakers translate more reliably to headphones than the other way around. The best method is to use speakers to mix and to check the mix on headphones. You "can" use headphones to mix, but it's harder to get a good, consistent, result. Sometimes you have no choice, so you do what you have to do, but that doesn't change the physics. It's simply a fact that there are things you can't hear without cross bleed. That being said, there are also things you can't hear with cross bleed, which is why a headphone check it important.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I don't think the message here is don't use headphones at all when mixing. It's that there are things you'll miss if you use only headphones to mix, and that mixes done on speakers translate more reliably to headphones than the other way around. The best method is to use speakers to mix and to check the mix on headphones. You "can" use headphones to mix, but it's harder to get a good, consistent, result. Sometimes you have no choice, so you do what you have to do, but that doesn't change the physics. It's simply a fact that there are things you can't hear without cross bleed. That being said, there are also things you can't hear with cross bleed, which is why a headphone check it important.
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+1
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I don't think the message here is don't use headphones at all when mixing. It's that there are things you'll miss if you use only headphones to mix, and that mixes done on speakers translate more reliably to headphones than the other way around. The best method is to use speakers to mix and to check the mix on headphones. You "can" use headphones to mix, but it's harder to get a good, consistent, result. Sometimes you have no choice, so you do what you have to do, but that doesn't change the physics. It's simply a fact that there are things you can't hear without cross bleed. That being said, there are also things you can't hear with cross bleed, which is why a headphone check it important.
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I just think cross bleeding is being hyped a bit in this thread. Until you mentioned it, I wasn't even thinking of it as a major deficiency.

We seem to be all on the same page but have different perspectives on what we find important and expect to be revealed during the largest duration of time spent on a mix. Meaning - someone like me is willing to flip the "do everything on monitors" standard to "check your mix on the monitors", because the things I find get best revealed on monitors don't come up that often for me (and therefor are less useful/required as time spent with them). EQ, compression, basic stereo field placement, reverb for the most part can all be done on headphones. Headphones are easy as a rough draft, then you can make finer adjustments later. Does that make more sense?
 
Not speaking to you directly, Pinky, but often people push and pull and twist until they're worked up about something that was never said.

Quoting from post #2.
Steenamaroo said:
That's not to say you can't get a decent mix on headphones, but I think you'd have to do it with that stuff in mind.
I usually recommend at least checking on speakers once in a while.
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Good point about how a good mix will still sound good if you move around the room, off axis. Fine for a 1979 party. But I think today its very reasonable to have in mind that most people listen to music privately in their car or on earbuds. While popular music will get played over sound system in restaurants etc, most of us home recording folk know its going to be Spotify on earbuds. I do not mix for earbuds but I do check my mixes on monitors, car, earbuds. I look for a happy medium for all.
 
To me one of the issues you hsve to get used to is the bass response. I use semi-open but I still have to adjust some. But its something you can get used to if you have the knack for it.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I don't think the message here is don't use headphones at all when mixing. It's that there are things you'll miss if you use only headphones to mix, and that mixes done on speakers translate more reliably to headphones than the other way around. The best method is to use speakers to mix and to check the mix on headphones. You "can" use headphones to mix, but it's harder to get a good, consistent, result. Sometimes you have no choice, so you do what you have to do, but that doesn't change the physics. It's simply a fact that there are things you can't hear without cross bleed. That being said, there are also things you can't hear with cross bleed, which is why a headphone check it important.
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+1 too.

Like is said earlier (#4). Mostly you need the speakers, but sometimes you can hear details better with a headphone.
This way i search for those 'right sounds' within one track or so. You know, that one tone that tickels your spine. Or that deep extra side-base tone that makes your stomach rumble. :listeningmusic:
 
I'm in the "you can do it, but it's harder" camp.

Besides some older good Shure (I used as IEMs), various generations of iPhone/Pad/Pod, and long gone MP3 players/laptop earbuds, I have 4 sets of headphones (ancient Sony MDR-V6, Beyer-Dynamic 250Ω DT770, and a couple Sennheisers HD 280 & 518), and they range from Ok to excellent but so maddeningly different I've learned that relying on any one of them for mixing means a lot of time spent validating the result on the rest, as well as in the car, etc. Using near-field monitors at the start always saves me time. I've had two different sets of lower-end monitors (JBL & Yamaha), but even though they sounded different, it immediately translates better. I'm never perfectly happy with a first result, but once in a while, I get a "good enough" draft on the speakers for review. Never happens with headphones.

I have to add that I didn't really appreciate the monitors until I started addressing room treatment.

I also concur with the suggestion that if you have to use headphones, make sure to listen at least once with that Mono switch on your stereo/out bus.
 
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