ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Was going to reply to this thread here, but my reply in the thread you linked sums up my argument pretty well.
Mic distance recording singing guitarist
- Thread starter davecg321
- Start date
Dave, yeah. Take solace it's not you. When/where people put stuff up Sweetwater.. calling you out on this again in this case, that is misleading and/or gets about half of it right.
Sweetwater says'...
First they start the whole thing off with the wrong primary concept. This feeds the whole source of confusion. That being that this (tank you Boulder :>)
http://bouldersoundguy.com/images/Three to One does not apply.jpg
..is the core concept of the '3:1 rule.
Rather than this-
http://bouldersoundguy.com/images/Three to One Rule of Thumb.jpg
They continue..
Wrong. Many damn well understand it does 'minimize phase cancellation''.
So... wrong again. In fact ..THEY FRICKIN SAY AS MUCH in the next part.
Finally here they get to the fundamental flaw in beginning with advocating 3:1 as a near/far technique in the first place.
If we do near-far mics we place them for their desired sounds. Which means we we're damn likely to want to hear the effect (sound) of the second mic. Well... that includes the direct sound in the second mic, and it's bleed.
If we touch the faders for either of them 'mixing ..ya' know sometime we do this around here... You can see where their entire 'near/far as a 'first premise ends up.
Mack Caster
Banned
I am just curious as to all the live performers that sing into a mic and play their ge-tar at the same time do it. I love listening to live recordings and they sound just fine.
To that I'd say, what this thread and most like it mostly can be is chatting (hopefully clear and accurately :>) about the basics, or the 'how and whys of various techniques.
But hey I feel the same way with those 'superb sounding live vocals on a ball mic tracks out there.
Not a trivial thing IMHO :
Here's another one to toss in.
'Timid singer sitting hunched over his/her guitar... We fooked
'Singer standing, guitar slung not too high.. Mic it. Print it. Wipe hands on pants it's Miller time
Last edited:
Mack Caster
Banned
Seems as if that ship has sailed!
One says do it this way and the other says no, do it this way cause they are wrong, etc. Best advice, try it as many ways till it works for you. But it is nice to have a valid starting point.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
It's been stated pretty clearly a number of times.
In this instance, you want the vocals to be significantly louder in the vocal mic than the guitar is, and likewise the guitar should be louder in its own mic than the voice is.
You don't need to worry about 3:1 in terms of distance. Think of it in terms of relative volume, and use distance and polar patterns to achieve it. Most likely, you're going to need more than 9db separation at both mics because you're going to compress and EQ both.
Edit -
Seriously like put the mic where you think it sounds good on the guitar, then other one where you want it for the face. Set the levels on each however you normally would. Hit the guitar. What's the difference between the two meters? That needs to be as great as possible. Move the mics until you've compromised too much and then accept the limitations you've placed on yourself.
In this instance, you want the vocals to be significantly louder in the vocal mic than the guitar is, and likewise the guitar should be louder in its own mic than the voice is.
You don't need to worry about 3:1 in terms of distance. Think of it in terms of relative volume, and use distance and polar patterns to achieve it. Most likely, you're going to need more than 9db separation at both mics because you're going to compress and EQ both.
Edit -
Seriously like put the mic where you think it sounds good on the guitar, then other one where you want it for the face. Set the levels on each however you normally would. Hit the guitar. What's the difference between the two meters? That needs to be as great as possible. Move the mics until you've compromised too much and then accept the limitations you've placed on yourself.
I like this. Right to the point of it!It's been stated pretty clearly a number of times.
In this instance, you want the vocals to be significantly louder in the vocal mic than the guitar is, and likewise the guitar should be louder in its own mic than the voice is.
You don't need to worry about 3:1 in terms of distance. Think of it in terms of relative volume, and use distance and polar patterns to achieve it. Most likely, you're going to need more than 9db separation at both mics because you're going to compress and EQ both.
Edit -
Seriously like put the mic where you think it sounds good on the guitar, then other one where you want it for the face. Set the levels on each however you normally would. Hit the guitar. What's the difference between the two meters? That needs to be as great as possible. Move the mics until you've compromised too much and then accept I the limitations you've placed on yourself.
Wasn't it -9dB' the threshold used for the bleed attenuation used in the '3:1 tests -IINM, the guys at EV got years ago?
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
The thing is that if you take a signal and mix it with a delayed copy of itself, it creates that comb filter. The dips in that comb are deepest (really should be infinite) when the two copies are the same level and get smaller as either copy gets quieter with respect to the other. When you get to the point where the difference between the copies is 9db, the comb is only 1db deep, barely noticeable and generally insignificant.
More isolation is almost always better, though. Or more like, in this kind of case, you just physically can't get too much.
More isolation is almost always better, though. Or more like, in this kind of case, you just physically can't get too much.
witzendoz
Senior Member
You have to have 2 mics with a figure 8 option and you have to engage it.
By the way nobody has talked about just using 1 mic to capture the vocals and guitar? I have done this, you carry out a sound check and move the mic toward the quietest source vocals or guitar? Put the mic out front about 3 or 4 feet, If you get a good performer with good vocals and guitar technique it is easy to get a good result. Works better if the performer is sitting but not essential. The idea is to get a good sound at the source so no massive eq required later.
Alan.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
The room begins to become much more important in this situation, too, but I completely agree.
Honestly, though, I think the OP is back-sliding here. "I've been tracking things separately for awhile now..." and if you need that separation, you should continue. Sure, you have some good live takes. Great. Some would say that if every take isn't a great take then you've got practicing to do. Use those really great live takes as a guide track. Go back and re-track each separately.
Or just stop trying to be cute, find a nice room, stick a mic (maybe a stereo pair) somewhere in front of you, and play like you mean it.
Man this sure sounded familiar ...
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...tarist-393010/2/?highlight=engage+to+figure+8
Davecg maybe you could elaborate some, what you're trying to ask here? Something regarding natural Fig-8's vs multi pattern types?
To that I'd say, what this thread and most like it mostly can be is chatting (hopefully clear and accurately :>) about the basics, or the 'how and whys of various techniques.
But hey I feel the same way with those 'superb sounding live vocals on a ball mic tracks out there.
Not a trivial thing IMHO :
Here's another one to toss in.
'Timid singer sitting hunched over his/her guitar... We fooked
'Singer standing, guitar slung not too high.. Mic it. Print it. Wipe hands on pants it's Miller time
should one stand when recording guitar and vox simultaneously? I guess this would isolate each source better as well as making it easier to follow the 3:1 rule.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Sitting tends to keep the performer more stationary. Then you can get the mics closer without risk of bumping into them or otherwise changing the distance too much.