Mackie inserts as direct outs/returns to multitrack

robin watson

New member
By plugging a Y-cable into the insert of a Mackie 1604 (as you would to patch in a compressor, etc.), and then connecting the send/return portions of that Y-cable to the inputs/outputs of the HD24, would that not give me both a direct out from the mixer to the multitrack (for recording) plus an uninterrupted return path back to mixer (for playback)?

This would seem to me to be a far more elegant setup than a 1/4" jack inserted halfway in, as suggested in the manual. Why is the above scheme not suggested in the manual? Or am I missing something?
 
As long as you can route the output of each track to a seperate physical output you could do that. But then you wouldn't have all your tracks going to your Master faders in your daw.....would that be an issue?
 
Bulls Hit said:
As long as you can route the output of each track to a seperate physical output you could do that. But then you wouldn't have all your tracks going to your Master faders in your daw.....would that be an issue?

It's not a DAW; it's a hard disk recorder, so that's not an issue. Maybe I'm not putting it the right way...

If a compressor, for example, is patched into an insert, it takes the signal right after the Mackie's preamp and processes it then spits the signal back into the channel strip again. Surely the multitrack would do the same thing?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'seperate physical output' sorry. Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here.
 
Yes, that would work, since the HD24 monitors its inputs on its outputs when tracks are in Record mode (at least, from what I understood when I read the HD24's literature).

It's probably not mentioned since it requires insert patch cables instead of simple TS cables, but its not that big of a difference.

I have done the "1/2 way plugged in" deal with a Mackie 1202 before and, even though they weren't plugged in all of the way, they were still held pretty securely. I wasn't worried that they were going to fall out or anything.
 
HD recorders are setup with their inoput monitoring much in the same way as analog recorders. If you set up this way then you lose half of your input monitoring.
 
Well, whatever 'losing your input monitoring' means, the setup works beautifully for me: 16-track live recording, single trim pot rec level setting, out to recorder preEQ (set and you're done), set monitor mix with faders without affecting record levels.

This should be mentioned in the manual, regardless of any drawbacks.
 
however this would mean that you are dependant on the hd24 to spit you a signal back.

what you do is have a trs on one end with the tip and ring shorted together...out to a ts. signal goes from the mic preamp...and is then sent to both the signal return and to your multitrack.
 
TRS (with TR shorted) at insert, out to TS for the multi-track input? And this keeps signal flow uninterrupted through the channel strips and the multitrack? Mmm...interesting. Wouldn't there be a drop in signal level and noise, since the signal is now meeting both the impedance of the multitrack input and the channel strip?

Thanks for the reply, mate.
 
I guess for live recording that would work just fine. However, in the studio most recorders are setup so that what you hear from the tape deck is different input or output signals based on whether a track is record enabled, in the process of recording etc.... What I meant was that if a player is trying to do an overdub, he/she can't hear what they are playing during the preroll section due to all siganl flowing only through the same input on a recorder and not being multed through tape returns, extra channels etc.... However, i do see no reason why that won't work for a single pass recording.
 
yes, the shorted trs to ts is what i do when i'm recording live off of a mixing board...to my hd24 actually. as an added bonus the hd24 becomes like a pseudo meter bridge for your mixer too...(pre eq/fader of course)

works like a snap and the signal loss is negligible...iow you really won't notice it.

if you are really inventive you can wire up another cable which does the same thing, and still allows you to patch in outboard gear to the insert.

i won't use the shorted trs->ts if i'm in a studio environment since i'll be normally using outboard preamps there anyways...and what xstatic was referring to regarding multiple passes...

and if i'm using outboard preamps and i'm in a live situation, i'll just y-cable off of the preamp to the mixer and the hd24.
 
i did the exact thing with a mackie 1604 and a frontier design tango24 8-channel D/A/D. you actually get better signal this way because you are bypassing all the other circuitry on the 1604 and just getting the pre-amp.

the Tango software allowed you to select how your output was routed. all i had to do was connect channel 1 input to channel 1 output (and the same for the other channels), and I could monitor what i was recording through the same mixer channel.

This is how i had it set up:
Channel 1-8: 1-8 on Tango24
channel 9-12: Roland XV-3080 A&B outputs
channel 13-16: ASR-X Pro main and A outputs
Aux Return: SPDIF output from the Tango24 used as monitor for existing tracks

With the Tango24 I had SPDIF in/outs as well as the ADAT lightpipe, so I connected the SPDIF to my DAT and used it as a monitor for existing tracks when I was actually recording 8-tracks at a time (which wasn't often).
 
xstatic said:
I guess for live recording that would work just fine. However, in the studio most recorders are setup so that what you hear from the tape deck is different input or output signals based on whether a track is record enabled, in the process of recording etc.... What I meant was that if a player is trying to do an overdub, he/she can't hear what they are playing during the preroll section due to all siganl flowing only through the same input on a recorder and not being multed through tape returns, extra channels etc.... However, i do see no reason why that won't work for a single pass recording.



???? Not exactly sure what you are saying here. Using a recorder on the mixer's inserts is a viable technique. It will not affect your workflow during punch-ins whatsoever. When you are doing a punch-in on a track, you will be monitoring playback from the recorder to the insert return. When you punch in, the recorder will switch to input, and you will be monitoring the recorder's input, again through the mixers insert return.

In the case of the Mackie, the insert is right after the preamp, before the EQ and Aux's. You will not be able to EQ to the recorder, only on play back. Think of this technique as a "psuedo in-line" mixer.
 
Auto Input

The Alesis HD24's Auto Input feature enable you to choose whether or not you wish to monitor the preroll (what's already recorded) before punching in on any given track, which circumvents the monitoring problem. I also kind of like that you are 'reliant' on the recorder to return audio to the mixer; in the event that it doesn't, I know immediately that something or somebody (invariably me!) is wrong.

Since I've gone the Y-connector route, I won't be trying the 'shorted TRS - TS' idea pointed out, but thanks for the tip. If it does work, I'd have saved time and money, at least.

Cheers all, beers all round.
Robin.
 
My point is that with the way you are talking about hooking it up, a player cannot monitor the preroll that has already been recorded and hear their own live preroll at the same time. This could be extremely frustrating for many musicians. It has nothing to do with the monitoring mode of the recorder, but purely to do with the fact that recording consoles allow you to monitor both the pre and post tape signals simultaneously. There seems to be nothing "inline" about this to me. Inline implys that a single channel strip is capable of monitoring to completely individual sets of signal simultaneously, while using the insert means you may only monitor one.

Please don't shoot the messenger. I am merely pointing out what I see as being a potential problem by setting things up this way. And like I said, for a single pass live recording this doesn't really seem like a problem at all to me.
 
xstatic said:
My point is that with the way you are talking about hooking it up, a player cannot monitor the preroll that has already been recorded and hear their own live preroll at the same time. This could be extremely frustrating for many musicians. It has nothing to do with the monitoring mode of the recorder, but purely to do with the fact that recording consoles allow you to monitor both the pre and post tape signals simultaneously. There seems to be nothing "inline" about this to me. Inline implys that a single channel strip is capable of monitoring to completely individual sets of signal simultaneously, while using the insert means you may only monitor one.

Generally speaking, when recording overdubs, the musicians don't hear themselves until the punch-in. Yes, you can facilitate monitoring the input while listening to playback in most situations. In the scenario we are talking about, you are correct, you will not be able to monitor both playback and input at the same time. I have worked on hundreds of sessions in conventional studios. On every overdub session, the musician has not heard themselves until the puch-in.
 
Shoot the messenger? Naaah. Xstatic, thanks for the input. But Con Ritmo got the first beer for the wiring advice. It's nice to have actually learned something through placing a thread. Everyone's reasoning is spot on. I'm now aware of a possible monitoring issue and have a good idea what to do in the event.

Must be getting near closing time.
 
I would say that about 95% of the time musicians like to hear both the prerecord and the live inout during preroll in the studio. At least thats the case with the hundred plus clients I have recorded.
 
xstatic said:
I would say that about 95% of the time musicians like to hear both the prerecord and the live inout during preroll in the studio. At least thats the case with the hundred plus clients I have recorded.

Are you, as the engineer in the control room, also monitoring the input during pre-roll?
 
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