Looking for new microphone for classical piano

xeep

New member
Hi guys first post.

So I've been paying a guy 60$ an hour to help me record classical performances on a grand piano in this hall. I asked what device he's using and he told me it's the Rode NT4. I own a Zoom H5 and as far as I know I can get a Rode nt4 for nearly the same price(used but that should be no problem right?). And I've paid him more than the cost of his microphone anyways. The camera looks nice but for me video doesn't really matter as much.

I'm wondering what other techniques are required for recording. I know that I need to test highs and lows in volume most likely(not too sure about this process), along with find a good location for the microphone. I'm just a beginner here but I've always tried to record with my H5 with below average results.

I am also willing to spend more than 250$ on an even better microphone, if I could get a device that records with detailed sound. Obviously the professional classical recordings use 2000-3000$ mics and I won't pay for that, but up to 300-400$ for a mic that can nearly pass off as professional or matches microphones that cost more would be good. Been looking up microphones but it's really impossible to know these things well from listening to test clips on youtube... especially since I only care about the sound for piano and not everyone tests piano with their microphones. This should go without saying but I'm always gonna be using a grand piano, sometimes hall and sometimes in a closed studio.
 
I'd start with a search of "piano" and/or maybe "grand piano" in this forum. This topic gets covered pretty regularly based on my short time around these parts. The techniques and spaces are probably as important as the microphones.
 
So I've been paying a guy 60$ an hour to help me record classical performances on a grand piano in this hall. I asked what device he's using and he told me it's the Rode NT4. ...[snip]...
I'm wondering what other techniques are required for recording. I know that I need to test highs and lows in volume most likely(not too sure about this process), along with find a good location for the microphone. I'm just a beginner here

Since you're a beginner and this is your first post, I'll go easy :)

Unless he's a complete charlatan, you're not paying this guy $60/hour for his Rode NT4 mic. You're paying him $60/hour for his knowledge and experience. He should already know where to locate the mic(s) and how to balance the sound in the room.

Not saying you can't or shouldn't learn for yourself so that you can stop paying him $60/hour, just that it's important to recognize what's actually being provided in that sort of transaction so that you can better determine the value of the service (and any alternative services/approaches you consider).
 
+1 to the above. I was going to reply along those lines but wasn't sure how to word it.

There's nothing wrong with thinking 'I could do that!'; It's why we're all here, but as with most things the gear is the most basic requirement.
The knowledge and experience is the bit that's hard to get.

I mean, we all have a computer but how many of us could develop an application?

If your guy is literally just setting up the gear to capture a raw/live performance and that's the end of it then sure, you could do it yourself with a small amount of trial and error and relative ease,
but he's giving you a mix...a production..You might spend a long time trying to work out why yours doesn't sound like his. ;)

If you were using his venue and piano for previous recordings, be prepared for your attempts to sound completely different right from the start!

Tell us more. :)
 
One other way to look at it is that you're paying the guy for the learning experience....assuming he's getting you good results. :)
 
I too have to say the same thing. In fact, recording a piano so that it sounds like the pianos you hear on commercial recordings is amazingly hard to do. The stereo technique you choose, the placement, the editing possibilities, the room itself - which gets in the way of all of the above, and of course your monitoring system for determining the sound of the end product. When I do this - and I have been doing it for years, and it's probably now 50% of my recording sessions - the first thing you do when you turn up, before you even set up anything is listen to the piano in the room. This forms a good impression in your head as to what technique to use, where to put the mics, and the choice of no lid, short stick or long stick positions. You'll listen to the piano's mechanics as they too impact on the most suitable mic position. You consider what you wish to achieve - a close perspective, maybe for those contemporary percussive pieces - like Reinecke or a more distributed sound for French romantic stuff - the Debussy and similar. You develop a knack for hearing sounds that might need nulling. Maybe a troublesome noise source - and you orient everything to put this in the mics weak spot. You even have to decide on audience perspective or pianist's perspective - who's left and right. The pianist hears bass to the left, the audience could have it reversed, or neutral - the left and right of the piano running fore and aft. My experience is that very few new recordists can at first hear any of this stuff. It's new and very, very subtle. With a decent piano, frankly the microphone 'quality' is rarely critical. The really big differences come from placement and control rather than money. In fact, the first thing to appreciate is that some pianos have a flawed sound. A harshness or the opposite, a dullness that makes them unique. Your wonderfully expensive pair of mics might not flatter it, but make it even worse. The small electrets in the zooms are not quite flat response, but are very good at collecting everything - good or bad. Some other mics - like the German ones sound much less bright and hard - and could tame a scary piano - but will make a dull one terrible. How will you even choose the mic position? You won't be able to look, listen and then say THERE! Your recordist probably can, or at least get into the ballpark.

Buying the book or DVD of Len Goodman's ballroom dancing doesn't guarantee you will be able to dance - I know I have tried. It's a skill that needs to be learnt, and some people just cannot do it. Our long term recording project with a classical pianist works because he can play and we can record. Sometimes I edit a stray note - fixing it with another I took from a pervious rehearsal - but he always notices. I listen and cannot hear it - he can. Yet he cannot differentiate between reverb types. Sometimes it's just too dry to match our other products, so I apply something to just open it up. He cannot hear these changes I make at all. He hears the final pedal release, and hates it if the track is faded out. Nobody would notice, but he does. I pay my chiropractor about $35 for a very brief treatment every week or two. She went to university for 4 years to learn how to do it. My wife should be able to do the same thing, if I bought one of the special treatment tables you lay on, shouldn't she?
 
Lots already said and I tremble to intrude but, can we hear some of the guys efforts on your behalf?

I never have but would love to record a grand in a good hall and my 'instinct' would be one of the stereo mic techniques. CO-I, spaced pair, M-S. LOVE to give CO-I ribbons a do! This idea is based on the fact that I personally would want to record the sound an audience might hear?

I shall, as always refer the OP to www.soundonsound. Not many instruments they DON'T have an article about. The Joe must feature several times?

Dave.
 
+1 to the above. I was going to reply along those lines but wasn't sure how to word it.

There's nothing wrong with thinking 'I could do that!'; It's why we're all here, but as with most things the gear is the most basic requirement.
The knowledge and experience is the bit that's hard to get.

I mean, we all have a computer but how many of us could develop an application?

If your guy is literally just setting up the gear to capture a raw/live performance and that's the end of it then sure, you could do it yourself with a small amount of trial and error and relative ease,
but he's giving you a mix...a production..You might spend a long time trying to work out why yours doesn't sound like his. ;)

If you were using his venue and piano for previous recordings, be prepared for your attempts to sound completely different right from the start!

Tell us more. :)

Not a mix...this is just classical performance. He is setting up a camera and attaching the microphone to his camera. He seemed to have a stand to place the mic pretty high up, but nothing else in terms of equipment. Rather than the "I could do that" it's more that I would like the convenience of being able to record when I want to, as a pianist, that would be a big part of my main work and it would also help me set goals for myself. Me wanting it and me not being able to do it are not relevant, I'm prepared for alot of things to be beyond my scope of knowledge and that's OK. And I'm not looking to imitate his sound, as I won't always have to same hall. But having a decent advice to get OK sound whenever I want to is the goal here. Interestingly enough, alot of the best pianists in my music school record with even lower quality devices. Their good playing gets across and they can get into competitions and the likes. This just happens to be my preference. So I'm not expecting a whole lot here, I just would not want to miss the chance to get sound that I would be happier with, and I'm open to learning more about on the topic.
 
I too have to say the same thing. In fact, recording a piano so that it sounds like the pianos you hear on commercial recordings is amazingly hard to do. The stereo technique you choose, the placement, the editing possibilities, the room itself - which gets in the way of all of the above, and of course your monitoring system for determining the sound of the end product. When I do this - and I have been doing it for years, and it's probably now 50% of my recording sessions - the first thing you do when you turn up, before you even set up anything is listen to the piano in the room. This forms a good impression in your head as to what technique to use, where to put the mics, and the choice of no lid, short stick or long stick positions. You'll listen to the piano's mechanics as they too impact on the most suitable mic position. You consider what you wish to achieve - a close perspective, maybe for those contemporary percussive pieces - like Reinecke or a more distributed sound for French romantic stuff - the Debussy and similar. You develop a knack for hearing sounds that might need nulling. Maybe a troublesome noise source - and you orient everything to put this in the mics weak spot. You even have to decide on audience perspective or pianist's perspective - who's left and right. The pianist hears bass to the left, the audience could have it reversed, or neutral - the left and right of the piano running fore and aft. My experience is that very few new recordists can at first hear any of this stuff. It's new and very, very subtle. With a decent piano, frankly the microphone 'quality' is rarely critical. The really big differences come from placement and control rather than money. In fact, the first thing to appreciate is that some pianos have a flawed sound. A harshness or the opposite, a dullness that makes them unique. Your wonderfully expensive pair of mics might not flatter it, but make it even worse. The small electrets in the zooms are not quite flat response, but are very good at collecting everything - good or bad. Some other mics - like the German ones sound much less bright and hard - and could tame a scary piano - but will make a dull one terrible. How will you even choose the mic position? You won't be able to look, listen and then say THERE! Your recordist probably can, or at least get into the ballpark.

Buying the book or DVD of Len Goodman's ballroom dancing doesn't guarantee you will be able to dance - I know I have tried. It's a skill that needs to be learnt, and some people just cannot do it. Our long term recording project with a classical pianist works because he can play and we can record. Sometimes I edit a stray note - fixing it with another I took from a pervious rehearsal - but he always notices. I listen and cannot hear it - he can. Yet he cannot differentiate between reverb types. Sometimes it's just too dry to match our other products, so I apply something to just open it up. He cannot hear these changes I make at all. He hears the final pedal release, and hates it if the track is faded out. Nobody would notice, but he does. I pay my chiropractor about $35 for a very brief treatment every week or two. She went to university for 4 years to learn how to do it. My wife should be able to do the same thing, if I bought one of the special treatment tables you lay on, shouldn't she?

Thanks for sharing a bit of your knowledge on the subject. Hopefully my response to Steenamaroo clears some things up. As a student I don't expect to be paying thousands for commercial level recordings. (even if I could save hundreds that is what I aim to do, as long as the loss in quality is very little).I just want the best I can get for my current situation and I don't see how anyone can think there is something wrong with that. Of course you give me a better view of the difficulties of true high level recording and show there's knowledge that I can't possibly attain easily that is reserved for the professional. Though this is something that I think is obviously pretty obvious to everyone. If you understand what I mean

I obviously respect that you know much more than me on this subject, but the almost ridiculing tone that you write some of this with is completely unnecessary. Maybe it's your idea of helping, or maybe I misread your tone. It seems that rather than being concerned with what I could possibly attain from searching and trying to understand(which is obviously what I'm concerned with as someone asking for help), you are more concerned with defending the art that is your profession. And I suppose I understand that.
 
Since you're a beginner and this is your first post, I'll go easy :)

Unless he's a complete charlatan, you're not paying this guy $60/hour for his Rode NT4 mic. You're paying him $60/hour for his knowledge and experience. He should already know where to locate the mic(s) and how to balance the sound in the room.

Not saying you can't or shouldn't learn for yourself so that you can stop paying him $60/hour, just that it's important to recognize what's actually being provided in that sort of transaction so that you can better determine the value of the service (and any alternative services/approaches you consider).

It looks like my first post wasn't written with enough care, I was just trying to quickly get the point across but I suppose it was pretty rough, judging by some of the replies here. Of course, I'm not doing simple math and saying. Well gee! 60x4 = the cost of the microphone. gotta buy the microphone! And that's why I'm asking people on this site. At my current position, I am in fact planning another recording session with him, I'm not about to buy a microphone and try to do it myself. I'm just trying to learn with the possibility of saving money or even getting better results/$, or just better results in general for the future.
 
Xeep, I would beg, borrow or hire in a tall 'pro' mic stand and try the Zoom H5 atop it. Google about for some photos of old BBC rigs at Maida Vale and the Proms.

The biggest drawback I can see might be that the H5 mics/pres are not up to distance recording, i.e. noisy. And see what this is about..Zoom H5 |

And don't worry about "other things"! We have all of us put "feets wrong" here, you grow a thick skin or buggeroff!

Dave.
 
There are many ways to record piano. If you want stereo you need two mic sources.
For classical if you want to sound like you were in the hall audience, a good way to record is with two mics in an X/Y configuration (also a M/S- mid/side setup is great).
Guitar Center sells a cheap X/Y bar that mounts to a standard boom mic stand. Of course in this case you need two mics if you want stereo.
I would recommend two condensers. In pro studios they will use something like two AKG C414s but that is pretty pricey.
A couple of Rodes would probably do great for your appication.
One of the nicest piano sounds I have made was by using a Crown SASS microphone. It is a single device, shaped a bit like a head, with two PZM style pressure zone mics in it.
It captures a very realistic stereo image, no muss, no fuss. The downside is you have to mount it high so you need to either use a steel cable drop from the ceiling or a very tall mic stand.

If you want a closer up sound, I made a stereo PZM out of two pzms and a 3x3 ft piece of plexiglass, which can be set under the piano or taped to the underside of the lid (in that case you dont need the plexi).

You can also mix the two techniques (close miked and ambient) but the more mics used the better chance of phase issues.
 
Tall mic stand

Xeep, I would beg, borrow or hire in a tall 'pro' mic stand and try the Zoom H5 atop it. Google about for some photos of old BBC rigs at Maida Vale and the Proms.

The biggest drawback I can see might be that the H5 mics/pres are not up to distance recording, i.e. noisy. And see what this is about..Zoom H5 |

And don't worry about "other things"! We have all of us put "feets wrong" here, you grow a thick skin or buggeroff!

Dave.

I agree the quickest and cheapest thing to do would be take your existing zoom and record with that and see how it sounds.
The quality you will get is in the ears of the listener-it may be just fine for your purpose.
You can get a tall stand intended for video lighting here:
Impact Heavy-Duty Light Stand (Black, 13') LS-13HBI B&H Photo
You will just have to find a way to adapt it to your mic or stereo mic bar.
Or you can try suspending the H5 from the ceiling. You will need a way to bring it up and down easily (a pulley setup?) so you can turn the H5 on and off as needed.
Not the most elegant solution but at least good for a test.
-Rory
 
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