Live Vox/Guitar: Keeping Guitar out of the Vocal Mic

SmattyG

New member
Have been doing some work lately with a female vocalist who is playing guitar and singing live. With a lot of her stuff, esspecially the song we did last night, there are a lot of really quiet vocal passages. Of course, she quiets the guitar down for these, but the passages are still quiet in comparison.... I get so much bleed from guitar ending up on the vocal track, that it is almost all the guitar I need without overpowering the vox. The problem being of course, that the guitar coming in through the vocal mic doesn't sound very good at all, while the seperately tracked guitar sounds great. So, I want to add more of the guitar track, but there is already so much guitar in the vocal track, that it becomes too much.

We got to the point of having the mic (we decided to use the rode ntk) about 6" from her mouth, off to the side a bit (the side furthest from the guitar soundhole of course) to reduce sibilance. Any closer, and she will choke on it, but the vocal:guitar ratio is still not big enough. Any ideas? I was thinking that a hyper-cardiod might be the trick (although I don't have access to one).. my other thought was to build a baffle of sorts under the mic to block sound from below... Any suggestions?
 
SmattyG said:
Any suggestions?

Yea, do it a track at a time.


If she complains that it will "spoil her vibe" or whatever . . . then ask her what she'd rather have: a) a good recording at the expense of some of her "vibe", or b) a crappy recording with her (so-called) vibe in tact.

Tell her it's an either-or deal, because you can't have it both ways. :D

You can do things to minimize the bleed -- like using a couple of figure 8 mics and positioning them so you get the best possible rejection . . . or you can build these makeshift gobos or whatever. Talk about a vibe killer. :D But in the rare instance that these actually work, it's still not anywhere near as good as doing it a track at a time in most cases. And it's about 10 X the effort.

Basically what you're left trying to do is get lucky and actually make it sound good (with ods of about 1 in 5) . . . or just look for ways to make it suck less.
 
Re: Re: Live Vox/Guitar: Keeping Guitar out of the Vocal Mic

chessrock said:
Yea, do it a track at a time.


If she complains that it will "spoil her vibe" or whatever . . . then ask her what she'd rather have: a) a good recording at the expense of some of her "vibe", or b) a crappy recording with her (so-called) vibe in tact.

Tell her it's an either-or deal, because you can't have it both ways. :D

Hehehe, yeah, that's basically what I've been thinking all along... I guess part of it, is that I'm a musician as well, and I can really relate to the desire to play live. I have probably done my best recorded performances playning live, but the acctualy quality is not as good... What a tradeoff!!

What is the deal with figure 8's? Wouldn't that make it worse because the 8 picks up from both sides of the diaphram...

So here's the other parallel to the argument: I've done other songs with this vocalist, with the same guitar, where the vocals were louder, and that came out f@#$ing fantastic! But yeah, I've started coaxing her into the idea of overdubbing the song, and I think she might come around soon... I just keep thinking that it might take 10x the amount of effort to get her to play the song through like that, because she has never done any overdubbing before.

Thanks for your advice!
 
The main problems are that in order to get a really good, full-sounding accoustic guitar, I really like backing the mic up a bit and using a moderately wide pattern. Sticking a figure-8 or a tight cardiod pattern up close does give you a certain sound, but it's kind of pinched, in my opinion, and rarely works.

Plus, the vocals never seem to have that tight, in-your-face focus. You're basically stero-micing them in essence, which doesn't cut it for me. If I were to actually stereo mic a voice, I wouldn't do it by sticking a hypercardiod or the null of a figre 8 mic at waist-level. :D

Plus you've got phasing issues to contend with, and it's hard to compensate for this, because if the singer moves his/her head at all during the performance, it not only changes the center-focus of the vocal track, but it messes with the phase relationships between the two mics.
 
I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

There are just somethings that are played on a guitar that can only be played while do the vocals with it.

I am trying to find a way around it right now beause I cannot for the life of me play the guitar track, then overdub the vocals on to it because I don't play with a "normal" time signature. I like to speed things up and slow them down tremendously.

Right now I am going to try a scratch track with both guitar and vocals, then listen to that for a couple days. I will probably fuck up the way I want my song to sound but basically rewriting it to whatever comes out on the scratch track, but hey......

Anyways, after a couple days I will try playing along with the scratch track for a while. Then record the guitar over it, then the vocals, then ditch the scratch track and hope to God that it doesn't sound like a robot.
 
I have an idea! Try running your guitar signal to an amp in the other room and mic it, record it onto a seperate track. This will give you a track of just guitar. She can then sing along with this track for overdubbing and the guitar should be just like it is when she is plaing live! I realize this will be hard with an acoustic, so if possible get an acoustic/electric with a direct out. Problem: if no direct outputs are available you will definately get a vocal bleed in the guitar mic = it wouldn't work!:D
 
I suggest something very much as 13th did, but I say give her an electric guitar and DI it.
You can keep the electric track.
Do an acoustic track to the singing.
Blend both Electric track and acoustic track.
Double the singing or do harmonies on a new acoustic track.

Bleed through with an electric should be cut considerably.


:)
 
13th_Omen said:
...so if possible get an acoustic/electric with a direct out.


Except this girl is playing an acoustic guitar. She wants an acoustic guitar sound. Micing an acoustic amp is nowhere even close to sounding like an acoustic guitar. However it is a good idea for a different type of sound. I am going to try it sometime.:D
 
Bleed through should be cut considerably

Really the only bleedthrough with an electric guitar would be the strings noise (strumming). You could just run it direct and feed the headphones!
 
Outlaws said:
Except this girl is playing an acoustic guitar. She wants an acoustic guitar sound. Micing an acoustic amp is nowhere even close to sounding like an acoustic guitar. However it is a good idea for a different type of sound. I am going to try it sometime.:D

Thank you! Yes, that does sound like a cool idea but.... well it won't sound like a girl sitting in a chair playing an acoustic guitar...

Something I just thought of that I'm going to try: Putting the vocal mic a bit closer to the guitar (i.e. lower), but pointing it up at her mouth. That way, more of the guitar will hit the back of the mic, and be rejected and less of the guitar will be able to slip around to the front...

Chessrock, I understand what you said, except that there is no problem with the vocals entering the guitar mics (in fact, they are barely audible, which is great)... So we're not getting that stereo vocal sound you describe. It is the guitar in the vocal mic that is a problem ;)

Thanks everyone!
 
If you're happy with the guitar sound then use a SM57 or 58 (or other good dynamic mic) on vocals and have here sing right on it. Should be minimal guitar bleed into the mic.
 
Monsterpop said:
how about lettin her keep the guitar whilst singimng,,,
but take the strings off it;-)
:D


Hey Jimmy D

Sounds like something you Sammy would do alright.....

I have found that if you can just get a decent signal with one mic about three feet out from the performer, say about chest high that things can be made to sound pretty good.

Now you will want a good sounding room, she will have to do most of the mixing herself....

Playing the guitar well, singing well, making sure those two sounds fit together well also....

Now one more thing is that this is a really old post!

I still wanna cover Drop Dead Ugly!

Monsterpop is a cool set of tunes!
 
I think the problem is that people see these singer/songwriters playing their guitar along with the song in music videos and don't realize it's not recorded like that (you've seen it: they are in the studio, headphones on, really nice shock mounted mic with a pop filter above their head...).
Either you accept some bleed, or you track it separately like chessrock said.
I've recorded an acoustic piece with a friend of mine. I played the guitar, he sang. We were 20 feet apart and still got a lot of bleed from both mics. I got his vocal in my mic and he got the guitar coming through his. I got lucky and was able to mix it without too much of a problem. But when the two mics are less than 2 feet apart, you have to live with it or track it separate.
 
I would just use a single of stereo micing technique to pick up her voice and guitar as a single track instead of trying to split them up. To adjust the "mix", you simply move the mic up/down/etc.

I have had very good luck with the AT4050, a AKG 414, a Neumann U87, and even a AT4033 it this way.

It is more of a "room" sound, but can sound very good. Of course, you must have a preamp that create a fair amount of gain cleanly and with an acceptable signal to noise ratio.

If this is not an option, you really can only have hear re-take the vocal afterwards.

There is a reason they are called "recording artist"! ;)
 
I agree that the best solution is not to fight nature, and set things up to get the best sound you can without splitting anything. :D


Many singer-songwriters feel this way. Paul Simon is a good example. There is something about playing the guitar and singing your song all together that can't be duplicated by tracking. Some sound engineers just don't understand this. Like the live sound engineers who turn the vocal monitor down below the singer's comfort level.... :p
 
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