Live recording question

C

ConorC

New member
[SUB][/SUB]hey guys, I have a question because I am unable to test it at this time. I am putting on a small show in a few weeks and I would like to record it. The venue has a small decent PA, but only l/r RCA outs (not including the speaker outs).

So what I was thinking of doing is running everything directly through my Zoom R16, utilising the compressor in the Zoom, and taking a l/r feed and feeding it into 2 channels on the desk. That way I can mix and record separate channels at the same time.

So the question is, will this work?
 
ConorC said:
[SUB][/SUB]hey guys, I have a question because I am unable to test it at this time. I am putting on a small show in a few weeks and I would like to record it. The venue has a small decent PA, but only l/r RCA outs (not including the speaker outs).

So what I was thinking of doing is running everything directly through my Zoom R16, utilising the compressor in the Zoom, and taking a l/r feed and feeding it into 2 channels on the desk. That way I can mix and record separate channels at the same time.

So the question is, will this work?
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That should work, you do not by chance have access to a splitter snake do you? Thanks

also, few more questions. does the venue desk have direct outs for the channels? if so you could feed the direct outs into the Zoom. can you use a aux/FX send on the Zoom for the feed to the 2 channels on the desk? if so you would be able to send different levels to the live mix. How many inputs are you talking about? Does the desk have subgroups?:D
 
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Hey Atkron,
I don't have a splitter cable, the desk unfortunately does not have direct outs, or pre-fader outs for each channel, otherwise that would be my first port of call.

As for inputs I'm not going to have more than 6 so I have plenty of channels on the zoom.

I'm hoping to have access to the venue before the show to test this, it's not a deal breaker if I can't record the separate channels, but I'd like to, purely for the practice. And it annoys me that the desk doesn't have a compressor, which was the first thing I started thinking about.
 
ConorC said:
Hey Atkron,
I don't have a splitter cable, the desk unfortunately does not have direct outs, or pre-fader outs for each channel, otherwise that would be my first port of call.

As for inputs I'm not going to have more than 6 so I have plenty of channels on the zoom.

I'm hoping to have access to the venue before the show to test this, it's not a deal breaker if I can't record the separate channels, but I'd like to, purely for the practice. And it annoys me that the desk doesn't have a compressor, which was the first thing I started thinking about.
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you still should be fine, do you have a outboard comp you could insert on the desk? also if you can put up a couple of room mics, makes for a pretty good dynamic to capture the crowd. usually do not see built in comps on a desk until you get into the "buying a house" range. lol Good luck!
 
Hey Atkron, no I don't have an out board comp unfortunately. Great idea about the room mics, I'll definitely do that. Cheers!
 
Compressors can make feedback worse. Gates can help with feedback, but you would need to insert it on the channel that is feeding back. Inserting it on the main out would be pointless.
 
Farview said:
Compressors can make feedback worse. Gates can help with feedback, but you would need to insert it on the channel that is feeding back. Inserting it on the main out would be pointless.
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Please explain, I am sure you are correct, but it doesn't make sense your statement as I would assume the feedback would be coming from the master mix. Maybe not as useful, I can get that, but the "pointless" comment doesn't register in my head. Also, don't most stand alone compressors have a gate?
 
For example: if the mic on the floor tom is feeding back, the only time the gate will be closed is if nothing else on stage is making any sound, so the gate will be open and not stop the floor tom from feeding back.

No, not all compressors have gates. Even if they did, the compressor isn't helping the feedback, the gate is. Compressors would tend to make feedback worse.
 
Atkron205 said:
you still should be fine, do you have a outboard comp you could insert on the desk?
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I wouldn't do that. You can do it much better after the fact when you can listen properly.

Atkron205 said:
also if you can put up a couple of room mics, makes for a pretty good dynamic to capture the crowd.
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I would definitely do that. A board mix will typically miss anything that's loud enough on its own, and a room mic can balance that out. If it's a single mic or coincident stereo pair (like X-Y) and out in the room then be sure to center it exactly between the left and right main speakers.
 
Farview said:
For example: if the mic on the floor tom is feeding back, the only time the gate will be closed is if nothing else on stage is making any sound, so the gate will be open and not stop the floor tom from feeding back.

No, not all compressors have gates. Even if they did, the compressor isn't helping the feedback, the gate is. Compressors would tend to make feedback worse.
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I was thinking more of vocal mics feeding back, I get your point.
 
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the information. I have done this twice now, and I must say it has worked out pretty well. Here's the results: https://soundcloud.com/jailbreaksessions

The Zoom R16 has a built in insert compressor which caused some problems, so I didn't use it, because I really don't know how to. I have compressed it all in post. Most of the acts are 1 vocal, 1 guitar, but there's a couple of group set-ups.

C
 
If the PA is fairly sophisticated, and the room big, then most sources will be miked up. If the volume of the performers without the PA is already loud, then the only things going through it will be vocals and quiet sources. So the room mic idea makes a great deal of sense or you will have missing instruments. Feedback control is by ducking the cjhannel feeding back. If you duck the overall output to cure feedback then it sounds very strange. general concensus is that feedback control needs an op with a good ear and a fast finger - even though you can buy feedback suppressors, they can only remove feedback when it takes off - so for them to work, it's necessary to push them in rehearsal so they can notch out the troublesome frequencies. New feedback frequencies found during the show are too risky to let these gizmos try to cure. Most people who buy them, hate them - they are always on ebay!

Getting decent sound live needs a person and a good set of closed back headphones, or it's just guess work.
 
ConorC said:
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the information. I have done this twice now, and I must say it has worked out pretty well. Here's the results: https://soundcloud.com/jailbreaksessions

The Zoom R16 has a built in insert compressor which caused some problems, so I didn't use it, because I really don't know how to. I have compressed it all in post. Most of the acts are 1 vocal, 1 guitar, but there's a couple of group set-ups.

C
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Seems like a good start. On a couple of tunes I hear the image moving around a bit. It's probably from the left/right balance of the room mic tracks being a bit off. I think the compression also needs some adjustment as well.
 
The sound panning is from stereo room mic, due to certain constraints I have to have them in a terrible position and what you are hearing is people walking in from of the mics, me mostly.
Can you be more specific about the compression issue, I'm a total amateur, I know very little about this sort of thing and I have terrible monitors.
 
I'm not hearing as much of the imaging thing now, just a hint. I could have been using different speakers the first time. Maybe it's a bit bright, "zingy" on the guitar strumming and sibilant on the vocals. But considering the adverse environment not bad.
 
Hey guys, I'm doing this again on Wednesday. I'll see what I can do about the vocals and the bright guitar.
 
Compression is for post. The dynamic range of a decent recorder won't be taxed by an amplified gig. I hate recording with compression because it's very difficult to get rid of it after, if you need to.
 
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