line level Shifter +4 and -10
- Thread starter walters
- Start date
northsiderap
New member
The answer:
You could always try to use your main sliders to control the levels.
You could always try to use your main sliders to control the levels.
walters said:
I should have said the problems I used to have. The most common thing people used to do was to hook up a -10 consumer tape deck to a +4 mixer.
Going from mixer to tape deck, the tape deck would often distort, even if turned down all the way. Turning down the mixer output often resulted in a very noisy signal.
Going from tape deck to mixer, inputs didn't offer enough clean gain, and tape was already hissy. The result was again, a noisy signal.
These days, as long as you avoid distortion, you can get pretty acceptable results. It is best to have your levels matched, though, for best signal to noise ratio.
You wouldn't need a preamp on a +4 output to go to a -10 input, it's hot enough already. You could use a pre as an attenuator, if you needed to, if it has an output control. But you still could run into a noise problem. A pad or level shifter would be a better choice.
You could use a preamp on a -10 signal, but it would be kind of an expensive option. A level shifter would work fine. Many of today's mixers have enough clean gain on the line inputs to make it unnecessary, but a lower quality mixer will add noise on it's inputs if you use a lot of gain.
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
First, let me say that I am not an engineer. The real technical effect of line level mis-matching is beyond my knowledge level. However, in the real world, I have a lot of experience with it, because I use a lot of outboard gear with a Korg PXR4 Pandora, which puts out a -10dBV signal, and is looking for a -10dBV input. Most of my outboard gear puts out +4dBu. This is not completely true. My Joemeek twinQ can be switched to -10 or +4 output, and the Digi002 can be switched to -10 input, so using an outboard line level shifter is no longer necessary.
In my experience, sending a +4 signal to a -10 input, it is difficult to avoid clipping, even with the gain on the output device turned way down. As noted above, sending a -10 signal to a +4 input requires adding lots of gain, which usually means increasing the noise floor beyond acceptable levels, especially with mixer-quality preamps. Yeah, you can use an EBTECH line level shifter. They come in 2 and 8 channel versions, and they work OK. However, for your purposes, the cost of an 8 channel LLS wouldn't be much less than a decent soundcard with +4 inputs. LLS's also, in my experience, can be very prone to radio frequency interference, and need to be hooked up with heavily shielded cables, which further increases the cost of using the unit. I'd say what you really need is a better sound card.-Richie
In my experience, sending a +4 signal to a -10 input, it is difficult to avoid clipping, even with the gain on the output device turned way down. As noted above, sending a -10 signal to a +4 input requires adding lots of gain, which usually means increasing the noise floor beyond acceptable levels, especially with mixer-quality preamps. Yeah, you can use an EBTECH line level shifter. They come in 2 and 8 channel versions, and they work OK. However, for your purposes, the cost of an 8 channel LLS wouldn't be much less than a decent soundcard with +4 inputs. LLS's also, in my experience, can be very prone to radio frequency interference, and need to be hooked up with heavily shielded cables, which further increases the cost of using the unit. I'd say what you really need is a better sound card.-Richie
Do i need a Line level shifter for each piece of gear i have to balance out the +4 and -10 problems?
mixer output -10db or +4
guitar pedals -10db
keyboard outputs -10db
microphone output -20db
preamps -10db or +4
eqs -10db or +4
compressors -10db or +4
AD converters -10db or +4
DA converter -10db or +4
mixer output -10db or +4
guitar pedals -10db
keyboard outputs -10db
microphone output -20db
preamps -10db or +4
eqs -10db or +4
compressors -10db or +4
AD converters -10db or +4
DA converter -10db or +4
walters said:
+4 - (-10) = +14.
Won't work.
+4 - (+4) = 0
This will work. See? The output equals 0 (db) on your meter. The way you have it, your output meter will read +16.
There is no +16 on any VU meter I have ever seen. You have the wrong soundcard (it must be an old analog one).
Get a new digital soundcard as they semm to use +4 inputs so that you will have:
+4 - (+4) = 0 (db)
See?
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Very cool, acorec -- and you did that in a gibberish that only skippy here can understand!!!acorec said:
I don't think +4 output going to a -10 input= +14
What happens when audio is hooked up in theses configurations
+4 output >>>>>>>> (-)10 input is this BAD or GOOD db loss?
(-)10 output>>>>>>> +4 input is this BAD or GOOD db loss?
What happens when i hook up equipment like this?
What happens when audio is hooked up in theses configurations
+4 output >>>>>>>> (-)10 input is this BAD or GOOD db loss?
(-)10 output>>>>>>> +4 input is this BAD or GOOD db loss?
What happens when i hook up equipment like this?
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
See above statement, Walters. Replace the soundcard. It's not that expensive. After you havs shelled out for the LLS and all the cables to hook stuff up, you will have paid for a decent soundcard twice over. But- you may still find a 2 channel LLS such as EBTECH LLS-2 useful for the keyboard. They're about $50. The output of the mic is not really relevent in this case. Plug a low impedence mic into a mic preamp, and send its +4 out to the +4 input on a real soundcard. If it's one of those miniplug computer mics, get a real mic. It is compatible with the "mic" input on a soundcard, which means that you will have perfect line level matching, and it will still sound like arse. There is no way to make that soundcard compatible with the concept of critical recording.-Richie
sjjohnston
New member
>> My Mixers output is +4 and my sound card is -10
>> 1.) is this a DB problem?
Sort of. The output from your mixer will be too "loud" (or too "hot," or whatever other term you want to use) for the input of your sound card, unless you turn down the master output from your mixer.
You already got the simplest answer:
> You could always try to use your main sliders to control the levels.
The other most likely answer is to get a new soundcard. If you're happy enough with your soundcard, this doesn't seem like a good reason to go get a new one, though.
Unfortunately, you also got some answer that were a bit confusing:
> +4 - (-10) = +14.
> Won't work.
The difference between +4dBu and -10dBV is actually about 12 dB, because they're referenced to different levels (that's why there's a "u" at the end of one and a "V" at the end of the other).
> The way you have it, your output meter will read +16.
Actually, it's the input meter, and it's +12, and it's not even that. -10 dBV is the "nominal" input level ... most likely the max input (0 dbFS or "full scale") would be somewhat above the nominal level. And if you turn down the master fader on the mixer it'll read 0, or -6, or whatever you want.
> There is no +16 on any VU meter I have ever seen.
You need to look at more VU meters. I've got lots of 'em with +16. On the other hand, it is true that there's no +16 on meters for digital inputs which measure 0 as full scale.
> You have the wrong soundcard (it must be an old analog one).
What is an "analog" sound card? The basic function of a sound card is to take an analog signal and convert it into digital form, so the computer can deal with it. They're all analog (at the input) and digital (into the computer).
If you want to input a digital signal into your computer, you wouldn't be talking about +4 or -10 or dB at all, you'd be talking about S/PDIF and AES/EBU and the like.
> 2.) If i use a line level shifter from +4 to -10 thats alot of db loss right?
Yeah, I suppose it's a "loss." You're trying to lose dBs. If you hook a box in between you're mixer and the soundcard, it'll lose the dBs too.
> Do i need a Line level shifter for each piece of gear i have to balance out
> the +4 and -10 problems?
It depends on what you're trying to hook up. Many devices that output a "nominal" +4 signal are perfectly happy outputting a -10 signal. Just turn down the output.
On the other hand, a box that's designed to output a nominal -10 signal can pose a problem, if you're trying to connect it to a box that expects a nominal +4 signal. If you turn up the output box all the way, it's likely to distort and will probably still be lower than what the input box expects. Depending on what these boxes are, you might be able to make up the gain somewhere else, but there's a good chance you'll pick up either more noise or mor distortion than you need to somewhere along the way.
>> 1.) is this a DB problem?
Sort of. The output from your mixer will be too "loud" (or too "hot," or whatever other term you want to use) for the input of your sound card, unless you turn down the master output from your mixer.
You already got the simplest answer:
> You could always try to use your main sliders to control the levels.
The other most likely answer is to get a new soundcard. If you're happy enough with your soundcard, this doesn't seem like a good reason to go get a new one, though.
Unfortunately, you also got some answer that were a bit confusing:
> +4 - (-10) = +14.
> Won't work.
The difference between +4dBu and -10dBV is actually about 12 dB, because they're referenced to different levels (that's why there's a "u" at the end of one and a "V" at the end of the other).
> The way you have it, your output meter will read +16.
Actually, it's the input meter, and it's +12, and it's not even that. -10 dBV is the "nominal" input level ... most likely the max input (0 dbFS or "full scale") would be somewhat above the nominal level. And if you turn down the master fader on the mixer it'll read 0, or -6, or whatever you want.
> There is no +16 on any VU meter I have ever seen.
You need to look at more VU meters. I've got lots of 'em with +16. On the other hand, it is true that there's no +16 on meters for digital inputs which measure 0 as full scale.
> You have the wrong soundcard (it must be an old analog one).
What is an "analog" sound card? The basic function of a sound card is to take an analog signal and convert it into digital form, so the computer can deal with it. They're all analog (at the input) and digital (into the computer).
If you want to input a digital signal into your computer, you wouldn't be talking about +4 or -10 or dB at all, you'd be talking about S/PDIF and AES/EBU and the like.
> 2.) If i use a line level shifter from +4 to -10 thats alot of db loss right?
Yeah, I suppose it's a "loss." You're trying to lose dBs. If you hook a box in between you're mixer and the soundcard, it'll lose the dBs too.
> Do i need a Line level shifter for each piece of gear i have to balance out
> the +4 and -10 problems?
It depends on what you're trying to hook up. Many devices that output a "nominal" +4 signal are perfectly happy outputting a -10 signal. Just turn down the output.
On the other hand, a box that's designed to output a nominal -10 signal can pose a problem, if you're trying to connect it to a box that expects a nominal +4 signal. If you turn up the output box all the way, it's likely to distort and will probably still be lower than what the input box expects. Depending on what these boxes are, you might be able to make up the gain somewhere else, but there's a good chance you'll pick up either more noise or mor distortion than you need to somewhere along the way.
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Everything, SJJohnson has said is correct. The simplest solution is still to just get a good soundcard that's looking for +4 inputs.-Richie
walters said:
It DOES = +14. What don't you get?
To be pro, you have to *think* like a pro. So, think like a pro Walters!
Again:
+4 - (-10) = +14
Won't work!
There is no such thing as "bad" or "good" db loss. There is just a loss much like when your daddy decided to save $1 on a condom.
If only he had known where it was going he would have happily spent that $1.
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
walters said:
You subtract, not add. The difference betwee 4 and negative 10 is 14. To hook up something with a +4 dB output to something with a -10 dB input, if you want a 0dB signal on the first device to show up as 0dB on the second device, you need to add a 14 dB pad (attenuator) to bring the output level of the +4 dB device down so that it doesn't distort.
If you don't care that the levels will be different on the meters, you can just turn down the output of the +4 dB device. You do have to remember, though, that the 0 dB mark on the meters on the two devices will be off by 14 dB from each other in that case, and that if you hit 0dB on your mixer's meters, you will get SERIOUS distortion in the recording, because you'll be at +14 dB according to the sound card.
walters said:
To the best of my knowledge, impedance matching and line level matching are not at all related. Impedance matching is generally an issue for mic level sources between XLR balanced (Lo-Z) and 1/4" unbalanced (Hi-Z). I -think- that all 1/4" (or 1/8") inputs (whether mic or line level) are assumed to be high impedance, but I could be wrong.
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What makes it sound THIN and only high frequency are let through?
Why is that?
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How do i get more FAT and BASS from the cheap THIN sounding
sound card?
THIN sounding not there is no BASS or FAT what is the converts missing?
What makes it sound THIN and only high frequency are let through?
Why is that?
Why is the Bass cut out because this sound card is cheap?
How do i get more FAT and BASS from the cheap THIN sounding
sound card?
walters said:
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Blue Bear Sound
New member
Actually, not quite - the difference between -10dBV and +4dBu is approx. 12dB... the units are different between the two values, reflecting a different voltage reference point.dgatwood said: