Large Ensemble Recording - what to do now

Bakaman

New member
Hi Folks,

I have read some interesting posts here about recording ensembles - I play in a large wind ensemble that performs 3 times a year, and I have tried to record several times, with varying success.

The last time (Sunday 7th Feb), I had invested in a pair of Rode M5 and recorded on a high mic stand (modified lighting stand), with mic height at approx 3.5m, and approx 3 m in front of the front row of musicians. Recording config was X-Y, 90 degree angle, with the mics angled down m-d distance between front and rear of the ensemble.

It has made a fairly clean recording, but I don't really know where to go from here.

In the past - when recording in stereo on a Sony ECM957 M-S microphone, I've typically added maybe 6dB of LF boost and lightly compressed or levelled in Audacity. It has improved the sound sometimes (made it more appealing), but it is hit and miss and I would rather get an experience suggestion on what I might do better.

I have uploaded a raw sample (16bit/44) HERE or here -> https://soundcloud.com/bakaman-561964230/sets/festivo-dry

In addition to any suggestions on what I might do, I would ideally like to understand
(i) how I might make a CD-quality version of this, and
(ii) how I might make a more mobile-friendly version (e.g. easier to appreciate in louder urban commuting environments).

Finally, being a brass player, I would like to get a more direct 'closer-miked' pickup of the brass without it dominating the recording (which would upset any non-brass player, I guess). I think that we all sound too distant, and thought perhaps of using another pair of high-level mics mid way through the ensemble and somehow combining them after the recording. Any advice on whether that could work would be gratefully received.

I'm look forward to your learned responses.

Thanks,

Brian
 
Can I just add that the venue was St Sepulchre Church in Holborn, London. It is frequently used for musical performances, it has a fairly high ceiling at maybe 12-15m, and side areas an a number of large pillars that make it quite reverberrant. I cannot do anything re the recording environment, and the mic placements have got to be compatible with the audience (I record our live performances).

The full recording (in MP3) is HERE where you can also hear some of the quieter, more delicate music. Unfortunately for these 'quick and dirty' recordings, mainly posted for the players, these were normalised and lightly 'levelled' using Audacity. I'd like to replace all these with better versions from my dry recording once we have a workable workflow that works.
 
It is certainly reverberant. I think that adds a problem with the mid freqs. To me it is slurring or smearing in that range and some passages lose definition. It's also what is giving you the impression that the ensemble is at a distance. I don't know what to do about it other than record at a different venue. A rehearsal hall would be wonderful because the acoustics would be more tame. It might be a great place for a live performance for the audience, but not a great place for recording. If you can't record in a different location, can you find someone else who recorded other performances at the same church and pick his brain?

How big is the ensemble and how far back is the percussion/last row from the conductor? I have recorded some school bands in the past and I will place the mic stand right behind the conductor and maybe 1m over his head.

I don't know anything about the Rode M5 but I did pass it up when I was shopping for a matched pair of SDCs. I bought a pair of KSM137 from a member here and have been happy with them. I heard good things about the Rode NT5 and the Shure KSM 141 is supposedly a really good mic for this application.

For the one recording I heard, I'd say it still needs a boost in the low freq range. Not sure on the specifics.

BTW: The performance is awesome. Love the dynamics. And you gotta admit, having to record a pro-level ensemble in a highly regarded venue is a good problem to have. :)

About the brass player thing.... just like a guitar player. That's all I'll say about that. :rolleyes:
 
First, this sounds really good and from what I know of recording an ensemble, it sounds like correct. I don't think you are going to get much better with just two mics. The further back you are, the more room you are going to get.

For this recording, with just two mics, best you can do is add some soft compression and get the levels flattened out a bit in order to boast the quieter spots, but that will start hurting the dynamics. Careful with the compression, but maybe some would give it more of a sound you are looking for.

I am with Chili, what a wonderful problem to have. I think in this venue, more mics and closer to the instruments to tame the room is the best you can do.
 
Chaps, thanks for your complimentary replies. It is great to be able to play in such an ensemble.

I have added a few photos of the venue, distance of mic to ensemble etc to give you an idea.

I think that I will try to move the mics as close to the conductor as I can get away with, though he won't like the aesthetics, perhaps slightly to the side and behind of him might be the best. The photo from the side does make the mic stand seem a long way back from the front players.

Re bass-boost, I have fiddled with the Audacity equaliser plug-in, but never too sure of how much, and over which frequency range. Any suggestions Chilli?

Re compression, could you make a suggestion to start with DM60?

I'm also thinking of experimenting with that extra pair of spot mics (maybe omnis) around half-way through the ensemble to see whether that will cut some of the reverb and pick up the back rows closer. Phase issues / combing might be a challenge though, I guess.

RecSideS.jpgRecMicStands.jpgRecFrontS.jpg
 
Don't know what Audacity has. If you start going for more tracks, I suggest going with Reaper (it is a tried and true DAW), some learning curve, but you will probably like the level of control you get. It is free to try (forever with a nag scree if you don't buy it), but it is reasonably priced. With it comes a couple of plug ins, Reacomp and ReaEQ. The comp could push up the lows and push down some of the highs (very gently I would recommend, trust your ears) and ReaEQ could help you reduce some of the reverb effect.

Once you start going with more tracks, an audio DAW really will be your best friend. I like Audacity and use it as a wave editor, but it is not a mixing tool. I hesitated to mention this as it will add a little to your learning curve, but it will give you the right tools for mixing.

Once you have a sound you want, then you can begin to nudge the levels up to get it to near commercial levels. I suggest finding a CD of the same type music as a reference.

Unfortunately, I am taking you down the mad road of sound recording, which is a science and an art to itself. I probably didn't do you any favors.
 
Thanks DM,

I am already quite a sad person, re things like this. I have sonar 7 producer, but tend not to use it for this sort of stuff. Perhaps I need to find the equivalent of your recommendations for Sonar and do some experimenting.

I only use cans for post recording, I think that some reasonable monitors may be in order.

Thanks again,

Brian
 
I listened to the piece. I thought it was very well performed and recorded.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your technique.

I've listened to live classical recordings on the radio, and this compares very favourably.

Getting the mikes a bit closer might add more presence. I always figure that the best position ought to be where the conductor stands, because he (or she) is the one calling the shots based on what they hear.

If you have the capacity you could try a Decca tree,i.e. using three mikes.

You may also think about couple the XY pair with mikes focussed on specific sections of the ensemble.

But as someone said,investing in a decent pair of speakers would help a lot with your post-recording activities.
 
Sonar 7 will work just fine and I agree with DM60, Audacity is not the right tool for this stuff.

I am by no means an expert on ensemble recording, but have done quite a few over the last few years. If you can, you should use monitors and not headphones. Although, we all understand the anxiety over purchasing monitors. :(

I'm not sure omnis are a good idea in that venue. I think they will pick up more of the reverb than you want, not less. However, with omnis, I think you shouldn't have a problem with phase. Maybe you can try some spot mics in key areas. I've been wanting to try omnis myself, but haven't had the opportunity yet.

The video tripod is quite a monster and I don't blame the conductor for not wanting it hovering over his head. lol. I bought something like this, though I don't think I spent that much money on it. (Can't remember the details)
Shure S15A | Sweetwater.com

As for the bass boost. I might suggest you experiment with a multi-band compressor. Be gentle with it and don't go to extremes. You don't want to suck the life out of the recording, which you can easily do. But it might be the right approach to the 2-track recording and getting a better tonal balance.
 
Thanks Gecko,

Yes I will need some monitors, and I will get them. I am interested in the techniques such as the Decca tree, though it would seem to need some sort of monster stand to support it. The size of it will also prevent close location to the ensemble for fear of crushing the flautist.

The other thing is that I play (and want to keep playing) in that band, so any recording is unattended, so what I can do is limited.

I will try miking closer in next time, and add a couple of spots and see what we can do with Daw mixing and processing.

Thanks for your advice.
 
Thanks Chili, I bought the 10' lighting stand from Bax for around $22 and removed the base from a normal boom mic stand to gain the potential to get up to around 13'.

It is an experiment to see if it works at that height. I may spend more and the 15A looks good though it is even more pricey here.

Thankfully it is stable. Its a monster mic cluster because I am neurotic about failure, especially when I won't know that it has failed until it is too late. So each pair is recorded by a separate Tascam recorder, and one being the Dr40 lets me simultaneously record on the two ext mics and the internal pair. In the UK we call it belt and braces.
 
Thanks Gecko,

Yes I will need some monitors, and I will get them. I am interested in the techniques such as the Decca tree, though it would seem to need some sort of monster stand to support it. The size of it will also prevent close location to the ensemble for fear of crushing the flautist.

The other thing is that I play (and want to keep playing) in that band, so any recording is unattended, so what I can do is limited.

I know exactly what you mean regarding unattended recording - so hard to focus on recording whenever I'm playing in a freelance ensemble I would usually have to set up in less than 1.5 hours. I'd love to get an opportunity to record at St Sepulchre one day... I mainly record at St Clement Danes on Strand and some venues in East London. Not only I can only do a limited about of set up but carry a limited amount of equipment depends on where the venue is...

I would generally try record with at least 4 microphones, or 6 or more if I could drive to carry more equipment... Very stressful :(
 
Hi, yes it is far from ideal to multi-task.

I too struggle with carrying stuff - it is a pain, but sometimes like this time - the satisfaction of the best recording so far is a long lasting consolation.

Where might you add more micophones as a matter of interest. If the percussion wasn't at the back, I would add a couple of Mics in centre rear of the ensemble, above the better players. But the percussion ends up dominating and I can't do anything about them. A couple of flanking mics would pick up our peripheral players (not all of whom you might want a close recording of, if you see what I mean). Something of a quandary.

Brian
 
I use a rack mounted Tascam 1800 in a Gator case, and a suite case for my microphones and cables. The Gator case houses the interface, some preamps, a rack mounted power strip and a pocket for the laptop. One external outlet plug in for everything. The Gator case is a little heavy, but I can carry everything at once. Gives me the ability to mic up to 16 inputs. Everything is plugged into the power strip, and I need only one power source. I setup a template before I get to the site of where I want my mics or what channels I am going to use.

Once you are mic'ed up, set your DAW up to record, you will probably have 3-5 hours (probably more with these large HDs) of recording time at 44.1/16 (depends on the size of your hard drive and recording resolution of course), then I mix when I get back home. As long as you feel comfortable with the levels, and the mic positions. It should be just hit record and not much if any attendance is required.

A cheap laptop for tracking will work. That way you don't have to worry about it getting banged up (I mean like really low end since little to no post processing will be required of it).
 
Recording Luggage

Thanks for that, DM60.

At present, it is travelling by train with trombone, stand, mutes plus all my recording gear, mics, leads and recorders. So the big case and rack mount gear wouldn't always work for me, though I did take my car last time around as it was convenient and I had to take that lumpy lighting stand.

It spawns an idea for a kit case with all my mics leads and recorders though.

I am a bit wary of recording directly to a laptop daw, especially unattended due to uncertainty of laptop going to sleep and some of those unexpecteds. A compact, reasonably quality portable recorder like the Tascam DR40/100 gives me some redundancy and single purpose focus.

Perhaps I could use the laptop/daw and portable recorders. I'll think on that.
 
Thanks for that, DM60.

At present, it is travelling by train with trombone, stand, mutes plus all my recording gear, mics, leads and recorders. So the big case and rack mount gear wouldn't always work for me, though I did take my car last time around as it was convenient and I had to take that lumpy lighting stand.

It spawns an idea for a kit case with all my mics leads and recorders though.

I am a bit wary of recording directly to a laptop daw, especially unattended due to uncertainty of laptop going to sleep and some of those unexpecteds. A compact, reasonably quality portable recorder like the Tascam DR40/100 gives me some redundancy and single purpose focus.

Perhaps I could use the laptop/daw and portable recorders. I'll think on that.

For recording, I setup the laptop (and USB port) to never sleep. That causes big problems. Portables work, just limited in many ways.

But the interface and laptop won't be your biggest problem. The mics, cables and stands are the PITAs. Probably one big setup case on rollers (like a hard shell suitcase) and strap your stands and trombone to it. Mobile recording is not an easy task for all the reasons you already know.
 
I too, use a laptop with an interface. I use to have the Tascam US-1800 as well, but traded with someone for the US-800. (The other guy needed more inputs and I wasn't using them, plus I got the 1800 super cheap, so easy trade to make.)

As DM said, turn off everything sleep, particularly the USB ports. Screensavers. Windows updates, WiFi. Turn them all off. Most DAW programs will keep your computer from sleeping or shutting down while recording. Make sure java and all the other auto update stuff, drivers, etc are up to date. My computer once started updating stuff in the middle of a concert. It didn't interrupt the recording, but it sure had me stressed.

I carry my stuff in a backpack and small duffel bag. Easy to transport.
 
ugh I wish I could transport my gears more easily without having to fork out more for cases etc.

I use laptop more for remote recording (turning off antivirus, wi-fi, screensaver, on max-performance power mode, separate SSD drive to record tracks from the main SSD for operating Studio One pro or Ableton Live 9.6 suite), with Prism Lyra 2, Audient ASP 880, and having to more Hercules stands (in K&M stand bag - so heavy), at least 150m worth of cables, and then microphones... Maybe I should look into a small electric car whenever recording in central London... :(
 
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