"Hiss" noise on vocal recording

J

johanbudiman

New member
Dear all,

I have following gears for my vocal home recording and also the settings:
- Focusrite scarlet 8i6 ( setting up the gain to 9 or almost maximum)
- Samson C01 condenser mic and pop filter 6" away (plugged in to the 1st channel of Focusrite 8i6)
- Klotz XLR to XLR cable for microphone (3m.. replacing the old one "Canare")
- Izotope music & speech cleaner (software)
- Audacity (software)

i am facing a problem during every recording to my PC, there are alot of "hiss" noise. i want to get rid of it without depending on "izotope MS cleaner", is there any solution ?...
because i have to cleanup my vocals twice with izotope (first 10dB and then second 5dB)...and i already change the XLR cables but no improvements....

NB: attached the front view of Focusrite 8i6
Scarlett8i6_Front.jpg

I really apprecieate any helpful answer....:)
 
Try turning down the gain on on the Scarlett preamp. You should be shooting for -18 to -12 dBFS on your recording software. Also make sure the 48V phantom power is turned on for your condenser mic.

J
 
So, of course, you're never going to get rid of all of the noise. Well, in a computer, you can clip or mute or gate out all of noise between phrases, but it will still be there during the parts you want to hear and you'll never get rid of it completely. The best you can do is to maximize the difference (actually the ratio) between the signal you want and the noise that you don't. You have to evaluate how much is too much, and make sure that you're not chasing some unreasonably stringent ideal. Part of that also has to do with what else is going on at the time. An a capella performance or spoken word will probably want a higher S/N ratio than a heavy metal record which has all that other noise (er...signal...guitars, bass, drums) to mask whatever unwanted hiss might be on the vocal.

Without a good number of the S/N ratio in your recording AND some idea of the context that it needs to sit in, it's kind of hard to tell if this is a real problem or if you've just got the thing soloed and cranked.

Assuming that it actually is unacceptably loud in context, the first place to look is probably the phantom power and gain staging that JMac52 mentioned. After that very basic set up work, I would start by looking (or listening) at the actually recording environment. Computer fans, equipment motors, HVAC, the refrigerator in the room down the hall. The ambient noise in a typical home recording room is really usually the biggest limit to how low you can get the noise floor. A big part of the problem is that we are all so used to these things in modern daily life that it doesn't actually even register to our conscious brains until either it goes away completely, or we actually have it pointed out.

So, plug in the mic, put on some headphones and crank it up as loud as you dare and move it around a little, point it in different directions around the room and see if/how that noise changes. Does it get louder when you point it a certain direction? What's it pointed at that's making noise? How can you reduce or eliminate that source? Unfortunately, these actual acoustic sources of noise are often the most difficult to get rid of, but you'll want to turn off any non-essential equipment, and maybe turn down the thermostat during tracking (in winter, turn it up in summer) so that the HVAC doesn't kick in. We used to unplug the freezer in the basement studio at my friend's house, till I forgot to plug it back in one time...

If that's not the problem then you have to start looking at your gear...
 
What works for me is this-

I wear my headphones, plug the particular mic into my preamp that I plan to record with, slowly turn up the gain on the preamp just until the hiss begins and then back down the gain until the hiss goes away.

I also have hearing loss above 10k, so I watch the meters when I'm backing down the input gain from the hiss position. Most of the time, when I no longer hear the hiss, the meter is still registering a tiny bit of hiss, so I always stop reducing gain when the meter no longer shows input (hiss) signal.
 
There is one big secret to doing quality home recording and that is using quality mics. Samson mics tend to be low end mics and have cheap chinese electrical components. The hiss is also called sibilance. A cheap mic will almost always have sibilance when you turn the sound all the way up. There is a fix. There are several people out there who will modify your microphone and replace the cheap chinese components with high quality electronic components. I have had several mics done. Here's how you can tell a good mic. Turn the sound all the way up. If you hear hiss, etc. then you are dealing with low quality components. I have had mics done by John Bonnell who replaces only the electronics and also by Michael Joly of Oktavamod. In both instances when I got them back you could turn the sound all the way up and hear dead silence (unless of course there is sound present) No hiss not nothing. But start to record music and it sound great. You still have to control the volume going in to the computer but the quality is excellent. Cost $100-$300 per mic. Depends on what you get. You can send your samson in and have a Neumann quality mic in a couple weeks. It makes all the difference in the world on your recording.
 
Guitar Hack said:
There is one big secret to doing quality home recording and that is using quality mics. Samson mics tend to be low end mics and have cheap chinese electrical components. The hiss is also called sibilance. A cheap mic will almost always have sibilance when you turn the sound all the way up. There is a fix. There are several people out there who will modify your microphone and replace the cheap chinese components with high quality electronic components. I have had several mics done. Here's how you can tell a good mic. Turn the sound all the way up. If you hear hiss, etc. then you are dealing with low quality components. I have had mics done by John Bonnell who replaces only the electronics and also by Michael Joly of Oktavamod. In both instances when I got them back you could turn the sound all the way up and hear dead silence (unless of course there is sound present) No hiss not nothing. But start to record music and it sound great. You still have to control the volume going in to the computer but the quality is excellent. Cost $100-$300 per mic. Depends on what you get. You can send your samson in and have a Neumann quality mic in a couple weeks. It makes all the difference in the world on your recording.
Click to expand...

Man, you really need to work on your vocabulary and definitions....
 
Guitar Hack said:
I got your message and negative points. It's easy to say someone doesn't know what they are talking about but if you do how about an example of what your saying is wrong. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. I spoke from experience with modded mics. I didn't know you were in my basement when this lack of hiss occurred. I haven't been to sound engineering school so don't know all the correct terminology. I have been to law school so could give you some correct legal terminology but I wouldn't ask you to do the same because I can guess you haven't been to law school.
Click to expand...

Wow, nice to meet you too...

Welcome to the forum man.

I have never been in your basement. I would like to be a friend and have that opportunity. But, I would not go into your space and call your mic 'hiss' 'sibilance'. Nor would I call your cat a feline like dog.
 
Guitar Hack said:
There is one big secret to doing quality home recording and that is using quality mics. Samson mics tend to be low end mics and have cheap chinese electrical components. The hiss is also called sibilance. A cheap mic will almost always have sibilance when you turn the sound all the way up. There is a fix. There are several people out there who will modify your microphone and replace the cheap chinese components with high quality electronic components. I have had several mics done. Here's how you can tell a good mic. Turn the sound all the way up. If you hear hiss, etc. then you are dealing with low quality components. I have had mics done by John Bonnell who replaces only the electronics and also by Michael Joly of Oktavamod. In both instances when I got them back you could turn the sound all the way up and hear dead silence (unless of course there is sound present) No hiss not nothing. But start to record music and it sound great. You still have to control the volume going in to the computer but the quality is excellent. Cost $100-$300 per mic. Depends on what you get. You can send your samson in and have a Neumann quality mic in a couple weeks. It makes all the difference in the world on your recording.
Click to expand...

Hiss isn't sibilance in the audio realm. Hiss also doesn't necessarily indicate inferior quality electronics. It can be an indicator for improper use of gain staging. It could also be "white" (background) noise being captured in a take. It could also come from noisy preamps, or even from running mic or line cables in parallel with power cables over distances.

Sibilance in regard to mics is usually associated with "s" and "sh" sounds being rather pronounced due to poor singing technique or to the characteristics of the capsule and associated electronics and the design of the body and grill in accentuating those sounds in a manner that is undesirable.

Every mic has a noise floor and if you amplify it enough you will hear it. In common correct usage of the right mic for the right task the noise floor of the mic isn't a problem. Just because you don't hear hiss from your modded mics that doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe your hearing between 4kHz-8kHz and higher is shot. That is not uncommon. If you are over 25 years old you have lost the ability to hear the highest frequencies associated with human hearing simply as a matter of aging. The "mechanics" of human hearing are most tightly focused around the frequencies of speech i.e. 85 to 180 Hz for adult males, and adult females from 165 to 255 Hz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbycusis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensorineural_hearing_loss

And no, I haven't been to audio school or law school. If you're a lawyer you should know that definitions and usage matter.
 
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Guitar Hack said:
There is one big secret to doing quality home recording and that is using quality mics. Samson mics tend to be low end mics and have cheap chinese electrical components. The hiss is also called sibilance. A cheap mic will almost always have sibilance when you turn the sound all the way up. There is a fix. There are several people out there who will modify your microphone and replace the cheap chinese components with high quality electronic components. I have had several mics done. Here's how you can tell a good mic. Turn the sound all the way up. If you hear hiss, etc. then you are dealing with low quality components. I have had mics done by John Bonnell who replaces only the electronics and also by Michael Joly of Oktavamod. In both instances when I got them back you could turn the sound all the way up and hear dead silence (unless of course there is sound present) No hiss not nothing. But start to record music and it sound great. You still have to control the volume going in to the computer but the quality is excellent. Cost $100-$300 per mic. Depends on what you get. You can send your samson in and have a Neumann quality mic in a couple weeks. It makes all the difference in the world on your recording.
Click to expand...

i really agree that i need to replace my samson c01, perhaps i will go for rode NT-1A or shure BETA 58A...
the problem with samson c01, if you turn down the preamp gain, you can feel/hear that you loss some "dynamic range" and your vocal will "less brighter"...That is my opinion...
 
c7sus said:
Hiss isn't sibilance in the audio realm. Hiss also doesn't necessarily indicate inferior quality electronics. It can be an indicator for improper use of gain staging. It could also be "white" (background) noise being captured in a take. It could also come from noisy preamps, or even from running mic or line cables in parallel with power cables over distances.

Sibilance in regard to mics is usually associated with "s" and "sh" sounds being rather pronounced due to poor singing technique or to the characteristics of the capsule and associated electronics and the design of the body and grill in accentuating those sounds in a manner that is undesirable.

Every mic has a noise floor and if you amplify it enough you will hear it. In common correct usage of the right mic for the right task the noise floor of the mic isn't a problem. Just because you don't hear hiss from your modded mics that doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe your hearing between 4kHz-8kHz and higher is shot. That is not uncommon. If you are over 25 years old you have lost the ability to hear the highest frequencies associated with human hearing simply as a matter of aging. The "mechanics" of human hearing are most tightly focused around the frequencies of speech i.e. 85 to 180 Hz for adult males, and adult females from 165 to 255 Hz.

Presbycusis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sensorineural hearing loss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And no, I haven't been to audio school or law school. If you're a lawyer you should know that definitions and usage matter.
Click to expand...

My apologies for going a little overboard. Attached is the dictionary definition of sibilance I found:


Sibilance | Define Sibilance at Dictionary.com
sibilance
Use Sibilance in a sentence
sibilant
[sib-uh-luhnt]
adjective
1.
hissing.
2.
Phonetics. characterized by a hissing sound; noting sounds like those spelled with s in this [this] rose [rohz] pressure [presh-er] pleasure [plezh-er] and certain similar uses of ch, sh, z, zh, etc.
noun
3.
Phonetics. a sibilant consonant.
Origin:
1660–70; < Latin sībilant- (stem of sībilāns), present participle of sībilāre to hiss), equivalent to sībil(us) a hissing, whistling (of imitative orig.) + -ant- -ant

Related forms
sibilance, sibilancy, noun
sibilantly, adverb
nonsibilance, noun
nonsibilancy, noun
nonsibilant, adjective, noun

Don't need no death panels here!

Like I say. I'm a long way from being a sound engineer. I'm just having fun with this stuff. I guess the thing that hacked me off was being given negative feedback for trying to help someone out. Have you ever heard the old saying, "No good deed goes unpunished.?" You have people of all levels of experience on these boards and the board encourages people to post but if your going to get negative feedback you think. Why am I doing this? I could keep my mouth shut and avoid the grief. Then if everyone did that no one would ever get any answers to their questions. I have never given negative feedback on any forum. I know going in you have a lot of different people with different knowledge levels. ie. Ever look at a piece of equipment like, say a Jasmine acoustic guitar? If you look at the rating it gets then you would think it's the same as say a Martin D-16. But if you know that one is entry level and one is intermediate or higher level then the rating likely means the beginners like the Jasmine and I would know not to ever compare it to a Martin D-16 even though ratings may be comparable. You have to take everything with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'm no sound engineer so take what I say with that in mind.
 
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I almost gave you negative feedback for your response in the thread where you said condenser and ribbon mics don't need preamps and that preamps are only helpful with tube mics and sometimes ribbons. Maybe you meant to say a preamp wouldn't help with a USB Yeti. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm curious to know which model ribbon mic you are using that doesn't require preamplification to get to line level for tracking.

When it comes to audio you come across like you don't know what you are talking about.

So I figured why pile on?

If you bother to read that definition, sibilance is a function of speech. Hiss in audio is not a function of speech.

Passing along bad information isn't a "good deed", it just confuses people.

The OP of this thread has never posted a clip so who knows what the problem is. Personally, I think he is using the mic improperly by being too far away from it, because in the thread he cross-posted he said he was singing softly into it from about 15-inches away. The CO1 is a hypercardioid pattern mic so if you back off it like that and crank up the gain on it your gonna get a lot of room noise. When he said he is turning up the gain to 90% and it's still tracking low it's obvious he is doing something wrong.
 
c7sus said:
I almost gave you negative feedback for your response in the thread where you said condenser and ribbon mics don't need preamps and that preamps are only helpful with tube mics and sometimes ribbons. Maybe you meant to say a preamp wouldn't help with a USB Yeti. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm curious to know which model ribbon mic you are using that doesn't require preamplification to get to line level for tracking.

When it comes to audio you come across like you don't know what you are talking about.

So I figured why pile on?

If you bother to read that definition, sibilance is a function of speech. Hiss in audio is not a function of speech.

Passing along bad information isn't a "good deed", it just confuses people.

The OP of this thread has never posted a clip so who knows what the problem is. Personally, I think he is using the mic improperly by being too far away from it, because in the thread he cross-posted he said he was singing softly into it from about 15-inches away. The CO1 is a hypercardioid pattern mic so if you back off it like that and crank up the gain on it your gonna get a lot of room noise. When he said he is turning up the gain to 90% and it's still tracking low it's obvious he is doing something wrong.
Click to expand...

I have an MXL R40 which was modified by Michael Joly. I use it without amplification. I have had no problem doing so. I am aware that sometimes they do need amplification. I am also aware that condenser mics use 48 volt phantom power. But I do not believe that is what would be considered pre-amplification. The mic needs the 48 volt phantom power to work period. That isn't technically pre-amplification. You can check my web site. All but two of the songs on the website had the vocal recorded with the Modified MXL R40. Pre-Amplification is when you run the mic signal to a box that boosts that signal. A DI box is an example of pre-amplification. It uses a separate power source than the mic in order to boost the mic's signal.

Do you disagree with what I said about what could be causing the problem? Several people offered up their speculation about what things could be causing it. I did too. I have had cheap microphone cords that are problematic. I have an adapter for an amp that is brand new but causes not end of problems because it apparently isn't making a good connection.


"If you bother to read that definition, sibilance is a function of speech. Hiss in audio is not a function of speech." If you read the entire definition you would notice that there are 3 definitions of what "sibilance" is. the number 1 definition was "hiss". Hiss is hiss whether it comes from speech or a microphone. You are referring to the number 2 definition which is a less often used definition. I was referring to sibilance as the number 1 definition.

Hey guys. I was wrong to overreact to the post and I apologize. I'm ready to bury the hatchet if you all are. I'm tired of the pissin' contest already.
 
Unless the mic was modified for line level output (which would mean a built in preamp), you're using a preamp somewhere along the line.

Your dictionary may cover you but for future reference when people say sibilance with regard to recording, they're referring to accentuated 's' sounds on a vocal or speech recording.

It's worth observing this because sibilance in the above sense is either a result of how the performer speaks/sings, or the microphone/room characteristics accentuating high frequency sounds.
Hiss is usually caused by completely different means, and would require totally different trouble shooting tips.

If your catchphrase is "I'm no sound engineer" it might be appropriate to take notes for a while rather than handing them out.
 
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Apparently guitar hack finds it more appropriate to PM me saying "F**k you" than to reply in public.

In all honesty the above post was intended to be helpful.


Guitar Hack said:
My apologies for going a little overboard. Attached is the dictionary definition of sibilance I found:


Sibilance | Define Sibilance at Dictionary.com
sibilance
Use Sibilance in a sentence
sibilant
[sib-uh-luhnt]
adjective
1.
hissing.
2.
Phonetics. characterized by a hissing sound; noting sounds like those spelled with s in this [this] rose [rohz] pressure [presh-er] pleasure [plezh-er] and certain similar uses of ch, sh, z, zh, etc.
noun
3.
Phonetics. a sibilant consonant.
Origin:
1660–70; < Latin sībilant- (stem of sībilāns), present participle of sībilāre to hiss), equivalent to sībil(us) a hissing, whistling (of imitative orig.) + -ant- -ant

Related forms
sibilance, sibilancy, noun
sibilantly, adverb
nonsibilance, noun
nonsibilancy, noun
nonsibilant, adjective, noun

Don't need no death panels here!

Like I say. I'm a long way from being a sound engineer. I'm just having fun with this stuff. I guess the thing that hacked me off was being given negative feedback for trying to help someone out. Have you ever heard the old saying, "No good deed goes unpunished.?" You have people of all levels of experience on these boards and the board encourages people to post but if your going to get negative feedback you think. Why am I doing this? I could keep my mouth shut and avoid the grief. Then if everyone did that no one would ever get any answers to their questions. I have never given negative feedback on any forum. I know going in you have a lot of different people with different knowledge levels. ie. Ever look at a piece of equipment like, say a Jasmine acoustic guitar? If you look at the rating it gets then you would think it's the same as say a Martin D-16. But if you know that one is entry level and one is intermediate or higher level then the rating likely means the beginners like the Jasmine and I would know not to ever compare it to a Martin D-16 even though ratings may be comparable. You have to take everything with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'm no sound engineer so take what I say with that in mind.
Click to expand...
 
Guitar Hack said:
I have an MXL R40 which was modified by Michael Joly. I use it without amplification. I have had no problem doing so. I am aware that sometimes they do need amplification. I am also aware that condenser mics use 48 volt phantom power. But I do not believe that is what would be considered pre-amplification. The mic needs the 48 volt phantom power to work period. That isn't technically pre-amplification. You can check my web site. All but two of the songs on the website had the vocal recorded with the Modified MXL R40. Pre-Amplification is when you run the mic signal to a box that boosts that signal. A DI box is an example of pre-amplification. It uses a separate power source than the mic in order to boost the mic's signal.

Do you disagree with what I said about what could be causing the problem? Several people offered up their speculation about what things could be causing it. I did too. I have had cheap microphone cords that are problematic. I have an adapter for an amp that is brand new but causes not end of problems because it apparently isn't making a good connection.


"If you bother to read that definition, sibilance is a function of speech. Hiss in audio is not a function of speech." If you read the entire definition you would notice that there are 3 definitions of what "sibilance" is. the number 1 definition was "hiss". Hiss is hiss whether it comes from speech or a microphone. You are referring to the number 2 definition which is a less often used definition. I was referring to sibilance as the number 1 definition.

Hey guys. I was wrong to overreact to the post and I apologize. I'm ready to bury the hatchet if you all are. I'm tired of the pissin' contest already.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I disagree about the solution to the OP's question, and I have made my opinion clear in both of the threads he started on this topic.

This isn't a pissing contest. It's about technical stuff that matters to folks that lack experience and need correct information move forward.

I don't know where you are getting the information you are passing along but a lot of it is simply wrong for the average person starting out in home recording.

DI unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DI's that output line-level are generally pretty high-end products like the Avalon U5 or the Summit Audio TD-100 and they are both marketed as DI/instrument preamps.

The most common DI's in use are a passive design that use a transformer to change an unbalanced instrument-level signal to a balanced mic-level signal for connection to a mic preamp.

Modern mass-produced condenser mics require preamplification in most cases. Period. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of audio design and physics. A soundcard, a tape deck, an ADAT, whatever medium you are recording to- is looking for a line-level signal in order to achieve maximum signal-to-noise ratio and make use of the available dynamic range. Condenser mics output MIC-LEVEL! I've got Rode and BLUE condensers and they all require preamplification before they hit my soundcard.

Having said that, a USB condenser has a built-in preamp and derives the power for the capsule from the USB source. And that's why you don't see manufacturers putting USB mic inputs on interfaces and mic pres.

Microphone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looking at the Joly mic mod site I don't see anything about adding a preamp in the MXL-R40 mod. If you're not using a preamp with that mic you really should try it out.
 
Here's a PM exchange from Mr. Law and Order. So much for being sorry for going overboard. This is the exchange verbatim with no editing.

Don't go away mad, just go away.

Guitar Hack said:
c7sus said:
Guitar Hack said:
Sorry I didn't intend to mislead anyone. I'm willing to put this to rest if you are. I think on some things we just disagree and the others are a matter of semantics.
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I'm fine with that. I'm not trying to bust your balls. People that come here looking for answers are already confused and overwhelmed by the process of getting good takes.

The best thing about this site is the information provided by real-world users that don't have an agenda to push gear they have a potential to profit from.
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If you think your answers were better than mine it's because you are an idiot. 48 volt and pre amp are not the same but I didn't give you grief for it you worthless piece of shit. Please go out and buy a hand gun, load it, put the barrell in your mouth and pull the trigger. Do the world a favor you worthless piece of excrement. Fuck you and fuck your Nazi website
Click to expand...
 
c7sus said:
Here's a PM exchange from Mr. Law and Order. So much for being sorry for going overboard.

Guitar Hack said:
If you think your answers were better than mine it's because you are an idiot. 48 volt and pre amp are not the same but I didn't give you grief for it you worthless piece of shit. Please go out and buy a hand gun, load it, put the barrell in your mouth and pull the trigger. Do the world a favor you worthless piece of excrement. Fuck you and fuck your Nazi website
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


:laughings: :laughings: :laughings:

I'm not laughing at you....but rather at the meltdown he had in responding to you.

Been following this thread just for the amusement value...and that was certainly a hillarious way to cap it off! :D
 
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