Help with mic'ing/recording acoustic guitar

spantini

COO of me, inc.
Linkback to original post HERE

spantini : I like it. I just did a test recording of my acoustic guitar through an AT2020 XLR condenser & Tascam US-2x2 into Reaper. I had the input gain just below red light. The mic was at the 12th fret, but mine was about 16" away - I got about half the volume of yours.

Mack : You want your input level to be between a -12 and -18dbs as it is going into Reaper. This is your best noise to signal ratio and it is what your interface was designed to be used at. You will make up the volume in your DAW (Reaper) when you do your final mix and mastering. If you need any help DM me or start a new thread. It is a very simply process.

Hi, Mack. As per your suggestion, I started this thread.

I've included an image of the mixer fader showing my input recording level at 0.00dB - not the -12 to -18 dB range you suggested.

On playback, the acoustic track was much lower than the sequenced drum tracks - and the're all sitting at 0.0dB on the faders with no other volume adjustments I'm aware of.

UzoWQag.png
 
I've included an image of the mixer fader showing my input recording level at 0.00dB - not the -12 to -18 dB range you suggested.

Hi,

The -12 to -18 is referring to the level of the recorded audio - where the visual meters for your track peak (or average...or whatever).
You use the hardware gain control to get this right.

The fader that you pictured is a post control and doesn't alter the recording.
It should be left at 0.00 until the mixing stage.
 
OK, there are basically 4 things that profession recording studios do and they do it without fail. Believe it or not, you have that same ability!

1. Recording environment. As you have already read what the OP did on the thread you referenced, within his closet to make sure that he had the best recording environment he could achieve. He did it for $0 dollars and I think we can both agree that his audio is absolutely awesome. If you have not done so, I suggest you go to his SC channel and listen to his other recordings.

2. Recording equipment. I think you are good to go in this area but remember that you should never buy any thing for your studio that you can not expand with.

3. Mic placement. Sound engineers will spend hours moving mics 3 or 4 inches in all directions as well as over head to find that sweet spot. This is something you will need to experiment with in order to get the best results for the mics you use.

4. Input levels. When digital recording came into its own, most studios dismissed it. Like most humans, we get set in our ways and refuse to change. As time went on, more and more brand name audio suppliers starting to see where the future of audio was heading and starting pumping millions of dollars into the research and development for their products. I live by the rule of taking advice from the manufacturers since they have spent the money to do their own research.

What they found was that in order to get the cleanest signal from the mic or instrument into the digital recorder or computer, the input levels need to be between a -12 and -18dbs. The first thing you need to understand is that this IS NOT the same as your output level when you master your audio.

The input level is set by your INTERFACE, not your DAW as per the picture you provided in your first post. When you have your mic hooked into your interface and you have your track armed to record in Reaper, you need to do the following steps in the order they are listed.

1. After you have your mic placed where you want it, you need to adjust your gain on your interface/mixer till the input level in Reaper, on the track you have armed to record, is between a -12 and -18dbs at the LOUDEST part of the audio you will be recording. This will accomplish two things. First it will give you the best signal to noise ratio and second, it will give you plenty of headroom before you peak/clip. ONCE YOU GO RED, YOUR DEAD! If you clip your audio, you will never be able to remove it, the best you can hope for is to repair it.

That's it! Your done. Your main objective is to get the audio from your mic into your recorder or computer at the proper input level. The next step is to use your DAW, (Reaper) to bring your audio up to your desired levels as well as add any effects, (EQ, Reverb, Compression, etc). See, I told you it was simple. :thumbs up:

The pic below shows the audio I just did for one of my videos. Notice the wav form difference between the input and output levels.

View attachment 100665
 
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On playback, the acoustic track was much lower than the sequenced drum tracks - and the're all sitting at 0.0dB on the faders with no other volume adjustments I'm aware of.

So push down the fader (decrease the volume) on the drum track!

Another reason for the -12 to -18 suggested recording level - as you record more tracks, then go to mix them, the volumes add up. Want to see this for real? Take two tracks that are peaking high (but not clipping), then mix them together, keeping the faders at unity - big OS, now your mix is clipping, the master meters are showing red.
 
For instruments that have sustained notes, -18dBFS is a good target for the average level. The signal should spend time above and below that point but probably not go above about -6dBFS at the absolute highest. For percussive instruments you can put the highest peaks in the -12 to -6dBFS range.
 
Hi,

...

The fader that you pictured is a post control and doesn't alter the recording.
It should be left at 0.00 until the mixing stage.

Oh, I get it.. Thanks. Does the (peak?) meter to it's left measure input signal levels as -12.0dB = around -30- on the meter? Is this how I'm supposed to interpret the numbers on the meter? I ask because I've never worked with dBFS numbers before I got Reaper. I'm an old analog guy.
 
You're an analog guy? Cool; Did you ever record to tape?
Think of recording software the same way - The digital track is your tape track. :)

Mic preamp gain is the same as it was on a mixing console or hardware preamp, and fader is post control, like mixing tape playback.
I.E. If you record so hot that it distorts, or so quiet that it's swamped in noise, the fader after the fact won't help.

I don't really know reaper well so I'm not going to guess at it's metering but, honestly, nine times out of ten I shout "play loud" and then turn the gain up until the meters are strong and healthy but there's still a decent margin between peaks and 0.
Signal = strong and healthy but it's not going to peak/clip.
 
So push down the fader (decrease the volume) on the drum track!

Another reason for the -12 to -18 suggested recording level - as you record more tracks, then go to mix them, the volumes add up. Want to see this for real? Take two tracks that are peaking high (but not clipping), then mix them together, keeping the faders at unity - big OS, now your mix is clipping, the master meters are showing red.

:laughings: Turn that **** down! :D

The reason I mentioned that was because I had the interface gain at max (no clipping) and the mixer meter was hovering at +6 w/ +2 peak and I still had what I considered low playback volume in the headphones for the mic'd acoustic guitar - compared to the sequenced drums. I have to turn my headphone-out at the interface up to max for the acoustic guitar to sound like a normal playback volume - that seemes a bit much to me, considering the high recording level.

I was just surprised at the difference between the mic'd and sequenced tracks, as I was expecting similar monitor volumes on playback.
 
OK, there are basically 4 things that profession recording studios do and they do it without fail. Believe it or not, you have that same ability!


...

4. Input levels...

1. After you have your mic placed where you want it, you need to adjust your gain on your interface/mixer till the input level in Reaper, on the track you have armed to record, is between a -12 and -18dbs at the LOUDEST part of the audio you will be recording. This will accomplish two things. First it will give you the best signal to noise ratio and second, it will give you plenty of headroom before you peak/clip. ONCE YOU GO RED, YOUR DEAD! If you clip your audio, you will never be able to remove it, the best you can hope for is to repair it.

That's it! Your done. Your main objective is to get the audio from your mic into your recorder or computer at the proper input level. The next step is to use your DAW, (Reaper) to bring your audio up to your desired levels as well as add any effects, (EQ, Reverb, Compression, etc). See, I told you it was simple. :thumbs up:

...


I see that I did this backwards on my first attempt. I began by adjusting the gain on my interface to max (no clipping) and paid no attention to Reaper's level meter (at +6 and +2 peaks). Now, since I haven't applied this new knowledge yet, I'm wondering how much lower the acoustic will sound when I record it at an even lower input level. I guess I'll have to push the track fader on playback - as well as lower the drum faders - to get a good headphone level.
 
I see that I did this backwards on my first attempt. I began by adjusting the gain on my interface to max (no clipping) and paid no attention to Reaper's level meter (at +6 and +2 peaks). Now, since I haven't applied this new knowledge yet, I'm wondering how much lower the acoustic will sound when I record it at an even lower input level. I guess I'll have to push the track fader on playback - as well as lower the drum faders - to get a good headphone level.

Forget everything you just said and give me 20 min. I did a vid for you to show you what your need to do. We are going to use Reaper to pump up the volume. Again, it is real easy if you go from step 1 to step 8 instead of going from step 1 to 3 than back to 2 and over to 5 then back to 8 skipping 6 then over to 7. Crap, now my head hurts, what where we talking about again? :facepalm: Just playin. BRB!
 
... Again, it is real easy if you go from step 1 to step 8 instead of going from step 1 to 3 than back to 2 and over to 5 then back to 8 skipping 6 then over to 7. Crap, now my head hurts, what where we talking about again? :facepalm: Just playin. BRB!

That's what I'm doing and I can't stop myself. My head hurts too :D
 
Thanks, Mack. Soon as I clicked your video my building's wi-fi went out - took the internet with it. May be out awhile.

I'm posting this by phone and will take a break until my connection is restored.

[Audience applause sign lights]

I'll be Bach
 
Not been following this a lot but just like to mention?

OP's problem seems to be getting sufficient headphone level whilst keeping tracking levels clean?

This issue is almost inherent in AIs, the otherwise very well repp'ed Tascam 16-08 was a bit notorious for its wimpy HP output.
The problem seems to me to be a lack of gain? If reaper can send a hotter signal to the HP monitor feed, fair play to it!

The alternative is an external headphone amplifier. The Behringer (damn their eyes!) HA400 is pretty good for the money.

If I am talking bllx, my apologies to all concerned! Won't be the first time.

Dave.
 
Hi, Dave.

Yeah.. the recording levels were high for the interface-mic'd acoustic guitar. The wave on the track screen looked very good, also. I had my headphone volume set at 1/2, which was plenty for playing back the step-sequenced drums (not MIDI.. a plugin kit), but the guitar was faint. I had to turn the headphone up all the way to get a volume equivalent to the drum tracks - then the drums were too loud. I'm using an AT2020 XLR and phantom power is ON.

Mack set us up with a video which addresses the volume problem. I'm going to proceed with that and see what happens.

Thank you.
 
Oh, I get it.. Thanks. Does the (peak?) meter to it's left measure input signal levels as -12.0dB = around -30- on the meter? Is this how I'm supposed to interpret the numbers on the meter? I ask because I've never worked with dBFS numbers before I got Reaper. I'm an old analog guy.

No. Just think of the input meter as dbs. The difference between RMS (Root Mean Squared) and LUFS, (Loudness Units Full Scale) is simply how the loudness of the audio is perceived and is simply a measurement system. LU, (Loudness Units) and dbs, are the same thing, just different terminology depending on which system you are referring to.

The reason I mentioned that was because I had the interface gain at max (no clipping) and the mixer meter was hovering at +6 w/ +2 peak and I still had what I considered low playback volume in the headphones for the mic'd acoustic guitar - compared to the sequenced drums. I have to turn my headphone-out at the interface up to max for the acoustic guitar to sound like a normal playback volume - that seemes a bit much to me, considering the high recording level.

Every track you lay down via your interface, needs to be between the -12dbs and -18dbs as we have already discussed for the input level. The very next step you need to do is bring each track recorded via your interface to around a -12dbs to -8dbs as explained in the video. REMEMBER that your input level and output level are two different things.

Now add any midi tracks or what ever you want to use and pull all your faders down to zero. Now the next steps will depend on your personal preference. Start by raising the fader on your drum track till it sounds comfortable. Now go to each track and start moving the faders up till you like the way they set in the mix.

I was just surprised at the difference between the mic'd and sequenced tracks, as I was expecting similar monitor volumes on playback.

If you failed to bring the track recorded via your interface up to the proper level AFTER it was recorded, that is why you are having this problem. I can just about promise you that the headphone amp in your Tascam has the ability to cause hearing damage if you crank it wide open on a hot mix. As will all headphone output devices, you need to have the volume set low and raise it as needed.
 
You're an analog guy? Cool; Did you ever record to tape?
Think of recording software the same way - The digital track is your tape track. :)

...

I did recording to tape. Those board's faders (and LED meters) were numbered differently from a DAW. I'm used to the fader panel showing 0.0 (not -18- ) when the fader is set for 0.0dB. The numbers on Reaper's level meters don't signify what they stand for (dB.. dBFS..? or whatever..). The manual doesn't offer an explanation of these numerical values either - it's assumed all users have previous knowledge; are experienced already [sorry, Jimi].

Right now, the level meter numbers (e.g. -6- ; -18- ; -30- ; -42- ; -54-) don't mean anything to me, except they somehow correspond to the actual dB levels indicated in the fader knob pop-up and there is a peak indicator at the top.

I'm not confused about recording levels and headroom - I understand all that. I just want to know what those numbers stand for - the manual doesn't explain, and Google searches don't fare much better with results.

An analogy: I want to know how that glass of water with incremented lines up the side is measured: by inches? by millimeters? by centimeters? What do those lines signify? I know how to use it, I just don't know how to refer to it.

Here's a pic of a Fostex 450. I used one for our bands live gigs, and for my early home recording adventures. These fader values are what I've been used to. So.. I'm learning the new ways :thumbs up:

zabAHPC.jpg
 
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