Getting big guitar sounds (questions)

[miroslav]

I can't recommend it for fattening guitars, and for me, a thread like this does benefit from staying on topic.

I don't make the rules though. That's just my opinion.

I do have a kneejerk reaction to it, mostly because there's an entire generation of 'producers' who's secret weapon is duplicating the kick drum because they read it somewhere and failed to understand what was meant.

And again...I don't think I was recommending it for fattening guitars. I do think I stated right off that for that, playing twice was the way to go.

AFA staying on topic... ....well, after 10 people come in and repeat the same thing to the OP, I think it's OK to then move on and broaden the discussion if there is something there that is interesting to discuss...and I thought the split/pan/delay topic would be interesting since there rather is a knee-jerk reaction to it as soon as it is mentioned, why, I don't know, because it can be and is used often in productions for all kind of things.

I agree that some people just take things at face value, so if someone tells them that rolling off at 250 Hz by X dBs will help remove mud on a track...they will then do that to everything all the time, but that's really no reason to avoid ever mentioning that to anyone.
IOW...misuse of a technique or production process doesn't mean we should only ever talk about stuff that works generically on everything and avoid discussing broader, maybe more specific techniques/process for fear of someone not knowing how to apply them properly.

Anyway...I'm not sure why it's such a "don't talk about it" topic when there are very valid uses to split/pan/delay that work perfectly fine...but again, we agree that it's not the thing to do for fattening guitars!

If it's too confusing to disuss it in this thread...OK, then I'll start a tread specific to it then if anyone prefers.

 

[Greg_L]

i couldn't find the exact bit as i'm lazy and it's a long video but, even this clip from the Classic Album series making of "never mind the bollocks" shows how many rhythm guitar tracks they used. there's a couple of tracks with no bass guitar on that album, just track after track of thick, tight guitar



(about 6 minutes in there's a bit where the producer brings up all the guitar tracks on the desk)

so, like greg, i'm not old enough to know exactly what they did in the 70's (and was only a tiny tiny kid in the 80's so dot have any experience of what they did 30 years ago) but for one of the biggest and most influential records ever made back in 1977 it was the case that they at least double tracked guitars!

Yup. Lots of guitar tracks. I don't know why people won't do this. You don't have to use them all and in the digital world it's not like you're wasting tape. How lazy do you have to be to only wanna record one track and try tricks to make it sound bigger?

 

[Justsomeguy]

it's just crazy right! i recorded some crazy math-core band a couple of years ago and the guitar parts were hard as f**k. but, even then, we double tracked both guitar parts. on the overdubs we had to do it almost a phrase at a time to make it super tight as the parts were very technical but it was well worth it and we got a big, thick guitar sound that worked great.

i think one of the big pro's and con's with digital audio is that sometimes people can go over the top and record too many tracks. Don't get me wrong, this is a great advantages but rather than using it as a range of "choices" and only using the tracks they need to use, people have a tendency to use every track!. the fact that i don't have to worry about track count and running out of tape is great but i very rarely use every single track i've recorded!

 

[miroslav]

... I'm right.

You walk into every discussion with that attitude.

Look...just because you only use/prefer specific techniques, it doesn't make all others wrong.

You've spent a bunch of posts arguing that splitting/panning/delaying sucks for fattening guitars, and I've spent as many AGREEING WITH YOU that it's not the technique for fattening guitars.
So like, what's your need to keep repeating that same thing for as though I am disagreeing with you...?
Seems like you're just looking to have an argument over nothing.

Of course, you simply don't want to talk about other uses for that technique because you've always had a knee-jerk reaction to it as soon as someone mentions it.
You might find it actually works on all kinds of other stuff...not just the "rare" occasion.

Is there some fear of having that discussion...?...or mainly it's just that you don't want to because YOU don't ever use it?

 

[Steenamaroo]

If it's too confusing to disuss it in this thread...OK, then I'll start a tread specific to it then if anyone prefers.

No one's confused Miroslav, except maybe some beginners reading this who want to know how to get a big guitar sound.

 

[fat_fleet]

I just stopped by to officially predict 10 pages

 

[RAMI]

.............................................................................................................................................................

 

[miroslav]

No one's confused Miroslav, except maybe some beginners reading this who want to know how to get a big guitar sound.

I would find it hard to believe that, since it's only been stated about 50 times that for big guitar sound, it's best to play it twice.
If someone has that much reading comprehension in this thread...they have bigger problems than their guitar sound!

Anway...I started a new thread to discuss OTHER uses for splitting/panning/delaying, so as not to confuse anyone here looking just for the basic "how to" on getting bigger guitars in their mix.

I didn't mean to stir up so much controversy just by mentioning splitting/panning/delaying.

 

[Dogbreath]

...ok
just so I have this straight...


ya double track guitars and use the copy/paste thing for boobies....

right?

 

[Greg_L]

You walk into every discussion with that attitude.

Look...just because you only use/prefer specific techniques, it doesn't make all others wrong.

Pot kettle.......That's hilarious coming from you.

You've spent a bunch of posts arguing that splitting/panning/delaying sucks for fattening guitars, and I've spent as many AGREEING WITH YOU that it's not the technique for fattening guitars.

Then shut up about it and turn off your argument machine.

So like, what's your need to keep repeating that same thing for as though I am disagreeing with you...?
Seems like you're just looking to have an argument over nothing.

.
Nope. I've had enough experience with the "technique" to know that it sucks and I will doscourage others from wasting their time with it.

Of course, you simply don't want to talk about other uses for that technique because you've always had a knee-jerk reaction to it as soon as someone mentions it.
You might find it actually works on all kinds of other stuff...not just the "rare" occasion.

"Kneejerk" - miro's term of the day.

Is there some fear of having that discussion...?...or mainly it's just that you don't want to because YOU don't ever use it?

Discuss away. Just try to control yourself when I disagree with you. I know turning everything into a 500 page thread is your schtick, but if you deep-down agree with me, then there's no need for it. Being a contrarian and playing devil's advocate can be fun, but time and place, dude.

Greg, over and out. Enjoy the last word.

 

[Mo Facta]

...



Word.

 

[kristoffereide]

Ok, this threat went on and on!

To clarify, i always record twice with two mics both times and adjust the levels to get a nice blend
However in my case it was the sound coming in from the mics that was the problem, not the sound field width ( i guess thats what you call it).

First I recorded on guitar with near micing 0.1 inch at moderate gain, then i did a recording at about 12" with medium gain (Yes I am an animal!).
But the sound was very dry and sounded very alien to what the amp sounds like to my ears.

After I read the document that was linked in the first page, i turned the volume up. Way way up, and increased the gain.
Perfect.
It sounded very accurately to what I could hear out of the amp. I guess the mics have to be pushed a little too. Even the cleans sounded so much more
natural and genuine and tubey.

So what I have to do now is build a little sound proof room to place my cab. Even with my little 30W A-class, its way to loud to use for practice or even in my neighborhood...

Thanks for all the time you spent on this though!

Kristoffer

 

[Armistice]

Ok, this threat went on and on!

To clarify, i always record twice with two mics both times and adjust the levels to get a nice blend
However in my case it was the sound coming in from the mics that was the problem, not the sound field width ( i guess thats what you call it).

First I recorded on guitar with near micing 0.1 inch at moderate gain, then i did a recording at about 12" with medium gain (Yes I am an animal!).
But the sound was very dry and sounded very alien to what the amp sounds like to my ears.

After I read the document that was linked in the first page, i turned the volume up. Way way up, and increased the gain.
Perfect.
It sounded very accurately to what I could hear out of the amp. I guess the mics have to be pushed a little too. Even the cleans sounded so much more
natural and genuine and tubey.

So what I have to do now is build a little sound proof room to place my cab. Even with my little 30W A-class, its way to loud to use for practice or even in my neighborhood...

Thanks for all the time you spent on this though!

Kristoffer

Dude, you should totly just do a cut/paste/delay thing to get an awesome big guitar sound. All the cool kids do...




























OK, that was uncalled for. I apologise unreservedly...

Never cut/paste/delay - you'll end up a crack whore, or worse, an argumentative home recorder.....

 

[RAMI]

or worse, an argumentative home recorder.....

That's classic!.

 

[Bass Ninja]

I'm not old enough to know the 60's and 70's, but I bet back in the days of actual tape and people actually knowing how to play and get good sounds from their equipment, they didn't copy/pan/shift very often, if ever. Maybe they did, but I don't see it. This halfassed technique seems to be custom tailored for the digital age. It's just too easy to do. Thanks technology.

Exactly. Technology breeds stupidity. Instead of looking for a shortcut or a cheat, try flexing your gray matter. Try and imagine how things were done prior to computers and the internet. Listen to early Van Halen records. If that's not a "big guitar sound" I don't know what is.