Gain Staging

Br3n

Br3n

New member
I post this thread not to be lectured on proper gain staging but to discuss peoples habbits or techneques. I.E do record to a certain db then mix to a certain db or do you record and mix at the same db.

what are peoples preferences?

i know i like to record to say -20/-16 peaks to allow for a lot of headroom. Then i mix to say around the -12 mark leaves loads of room then to get a mix how you like it.

lets have a discussion.
 
I track so things don't clip and don't really care where they fall. My tracks generally fall in the same range, but I don't care about numbers. In my mind, that's what faders are for. Is this the "right" way? I don't know. There's a buttload of differing opinions and no one seems to actually know what they're talking about, so I just do what works for me.
 
I record so nothing clips, which means it's usually in the -20 to -10 range. If something clips when I'm mixing, I bring all the faders down. Do that enough times and you'll have yourself an extremely quiet mix, around -30. I don't worry about that too much, volume is something I deal with when I "master" ( :laughings::laughings::laughings: ) the song.
 
do you mix to the average db or mix to peaks? or again do you leave to mastering stages to worry about that?
 
As Greg said, don't focus so much on the numbers on meters - there is no absolute 'right' answer.
The other thing to consider is that you want to end up mixing on the faders in the -10db to +10db region, because that section of the fader has the highest resolution (with digital AND analogue). That way you have more control over the balance. If you set your gain 30dB too high, then you'll have to have the fader -30dB down, and a tiny movement of your finger can make a big level difference.

So set your gain so it's in a useful place on the faders. That's pretty much it, don't worry about the numbers.
 
i've never worried about the numbers.

my reasons for asking is. with digital audio being as good as it is these days, would pushing the 0db threshold harm in the mixing stage with plugins and outboards. things like that?

if say you use analogue equipment with digital equipment, would playing to the analogue rules harm the digital audio or would the digital rules harm the analogue results?

like when you push analogue equipment it can help a tone but doing the same thing will distort digital equipment. will running a digital level where it doesn't really mater how high or low the signal is it will be clean but running that low signal through an analogue compressor for example will bring out the noise a lot more from the analogue equipment.

that sort of thing.
 
saads said:
I mix to peaks. Nothing should be peaking, or be even close to peaking.
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right so if nothing is to be peaking. why push for a hot signal why not just be happy with something peaking around the -24db to -16db range.

You always hear people say get as much of a signal with out peaking. if your going to mix to peaks around the -6 mark for example why not leave 20db of head room when recording?
 
You hear people saying foam does wonders for the bass, you also hear people saying egg crates are great for room treatment. Don't try to record 'as hot as you can without peaking', just mix everything so it sounds good, balanced, and has it's own space. I try to adjust all the levels before putting fx on anything, which means I have to bring everything down if something is peaking. When I do that, I get a mix near -30.
 
I'm lucky enough to be using equipment with VU meters in the analog domain. So I just record everything at line level.

I don't worry about the peak levels, because they don't matter as long as they don't clip.

I also don't worry about the level of the mix, it's completely besides the point. As long as it doesn't clip, which it almost never does because of the levels I record at, it doesn't matter how loud the raw mix is.

Once I am done with the mixes, if I don't send it out for proper mastering, I will line the songs up in wavelab and work on them to get them to a good relative volume and then do my 'mastering' to bring the level of everything up to where I need it to be.
 
right so as long as nothing peaks then all is well at all steps in the process.

so why do so many people worry about proper gain staging?

i personally work in the digital domain everything i do is within my DAW. so i dont have to worry about sending a signal to analogue equipment. but what if you have a hybrid set up? do you worry more about peak levels on the analogue board or within the digital DAW?

its not a numbers thing i am trying to ask for preferences. i know aslong as it doesnt peak whats the worry. its finding out what others do for gain staging.

i like to set levels to record to that allows headroom above my peak levels. I.E when i record my highest peak for anything i record whether it be a kick drum or a guitar is between -20db and -16db so i have all that headroom so i know my levels will never clip when i hit record.

when i mix, i mix to around -6db so i have headroom for anything that needs it. when i master i then stop worrying about peaks and start getting the track to compete with commercial tracks by compressing and limiting.

what is that you do to ensure nothing clips from the very start of the process to the very end? and i know someone will say just turn it down. what i mean is do you allow for that really big hit drummers seem to do only when you hit record or do you set the levels for a take then adjust levels by say 3db lower than the biggest hit so when you have finished recording your biggest peak is -3db or so. or do you aim for a much lower peak level?
 
I usually mix so that the master goes to about -10 or maybe -6 (in Sonar). It never approaches the yellow or the red ever. My individual tracks are usually -15 --20 I think. Pretty low overall. When I'm done I just crank the volume up in Sound Forge so it doesn't clip. Then I get it mastered.
 
For drums, for me, it's easy. I put a mic on whichever drum I'm checking, arm the track, and whack it a bunch of times. If it clips, the pre gets turned down and down and down until it doesn't. With drums, it's just a quick spike. If it gets a little hot, so what? No clip = good enough. For guitars, bass, vocals, or anything else I just glance at the meters and see about where it is. If it's green it's good. About halfway to 3/4 up the meter? Good. I don't care what the actual numbers are.
 
yeah. i am currently finding that going between sonar and cubase there are differences in the master level i work at. i find that sonar seems to give a higher sound level at -6 to what cubase does. so between the 2 i work at slighty different levels.

in cubase i work to about a -6 to -4 on the master where as in sonar i work to -8 to -6 on the master.

so once i have mixed it should be at a half decent level for mastering.

do you push levels when you are tracking?
 
numbers arent important it's just knowing what others do.

i tend to worry more when tracking drums to when tracking anything else simply because it is a quick spike so it tends to clip a lot easier than a guitar would. thats why i track to such a low level.

its like having a safety blanket. i know that if i track to -16db highest peak then if that big hit comes it will not clip.
 
If numbers aren't important to you why do you keep throwing them around? I guess I'm not understanding the topic or something.
 
If it clips, make it not clip.

Straight forward. Thats what i do.

Only when i record bass tracks i try to keep it in the green as much as possible. Green means go....Right?
 
Br3n said:
right so as long as nothing peaks then all is well at all steps in the process.

so why do so many people worry about proper gain staging?
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That's not the case. Proper gain staging keeps you from over-stressing the analog side of the process. The analog signal path is more sensitive to the average signal level than it is to the peak signal level.

Br3n said:
i personally work in the digital domain everything i do is within my DAW. so i dont have to worry about sending a signal to analogue equipment. but what if you have a hybrid set up? do you worry more about peak levels on the analogue board or within the digital DAW?
Br3n said:
If you record things with microphones, or plug keys or other electronic instruments into your interface, that is analog and susceptible to to overload without peaking in the digital domain.

If everything you do only involves soft synths and loops, then gain staging will only effect how the plugins you use react. For example, if you use plugins that emulate real hardware devices, running a signal level to them that is higher than the line level equivalent will distort the plugin, just like it would the real piece of hardware.

For actual hybrid systems, you have to use proper gain staging or else the analog equipment will not respond properly.

Br3n said:
what is that you do to ensure nothing clips from the very start of the process to the very end? and i know someone will say just turn it down. what i mean is do you allow for that really big hit drummers seem to do only when you hit record or do you set the levels for a take then adjust levels by say 3db lower than the biggest hit so when you have finished recording your biggest peak is -3db or so. or do you aim for a much lower peak level?
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For drums and anything else that has a percussive peak and a short decay time, I just set it so that the highest peak is around -6dbfs.

For everything else, I set it so that the sustain of the note is around -18dbfs(about half way up the meter in the DAW). This corresponds to 0dbVU on my analog devices, which is where they were meant to run. That means the signal to noise ratio is the best and the circuitry is at its most linear.

On the analog side, peak level doesn't matter much. On the digital side, sustained level doesn't matter much. Since digital levels are much more forgiving, it's best to optimize the analog levels on the way in.
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im putting numbers out there because people then get an idea of what im doing. so they can comment on it or give feed back. theres no real question this is just a discussion on gain staging and what people do as either habits or techneques. if all people do is stop from clipping by a few db then why mix to such a quiet level why not track at a quieter level to leave headroom?
 
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