Drum Shield? Yay or Nay?

[dudernut]

Hey everyone,

I'm in the process of putting together a YouTube series together featuring live sessions by musicians from my area in my single car garage studio. My main concern is when it comes to recording bands with a full drum kit all in the same room. The video will be all live cuts synched with the actual footage of the take, so using different rooms isn't really an option. I've got plenty of mics and inputs, but I'm afraid the drums in any rock situation will completely eat up the vocals. Guitar amps can easily be placed in other rooms, but not a drum kit. My initial plan was to limit the percussion to quieter instruments, perhaps asking louder acts to do a more type 'unplugged' approach. However, I'd really like to avoid limiting the guests' arrangements if possible. This led me to consider buying a drum shield. I've never used one before, and I'm not sure if it would even get the job done. I also wonder about the reflections off the slick panels (possible phase issues?). Does anyone have any experience with them? Worth buying or no?

I could also try using a unidirectional dynamic (57, duh )…as far away from the drums as the video will aesthetically allow. Of course, I plan on strapping headphones on everyone and I can give them as much monitor as they need….thoughts?

 

[witzendoz]

How big is the room? I often record drums with the guitars and bass live, and I can get very good separation with screens. Vocals are a little harder, if there is only 1 vocal and you can use something like an sm58 and have a screen in front of the vocalist it can work, multiple vocals are sometimes a problem having all the vocal mics open in the room. Also when recording vocals live with the band try flipping the phase as this sometimes reduces crap frequencies from the spill in the vocal mic.

When screening in a live situation I find it works better to screen the guitar amps and bass amp then trying to screen the drums, I usually only put a waist height screen around the drums and build a box of screens around the amps. Then 7' high screens around the vocals.

If you can get the vocalist out of the room and into somewhere quieter I would do that. I have recorded vocals in the hallway before.

Alan.

 

[AJ679]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJTzoWeYAqA
In this video they don't need a drum shield in a relatively small room and don't have any problems. Then again it's very light music and you mention rock music.

Another approach would be to use the rejected side of the mic to your advantage. Most cardiod pattern condenser mics reject the back of the mic very well, as do dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCopcNpzc60
Here, they're using a drum shield in a much bigger space, presumably to keep it out of the horn mics.

I don't really think a drum shield could cause huge phase issues, mainly because of how often they're used in live settings where you don't get a chance to go back and fix the phase in the mix.

If it were me, and I had the option of a drum shield, I would use it ONLY in groups where the drums are extremely loud. In any softer music or jazz, use the other mics as room mics to bring the mix together. If you have the budget for it, or a friend with one, and a band willing to come in one day and experiment with you, do that. Testing it out is better than anything, because only you can find out what works in your space.

 

[dudernut]

How big is the room? I often record drums with the guitars and bass live, and I can get very good separation with screens. Vocals are a little harder, if there is only 1 vocal and you can use something like an sm58 and have a screen in front of the vocalist it can work, multiple vocals are sometimes a problem having all the vocal mics open in the room. Also when recording vocals live with the band try flipping the phase as this sometimes reduces crap frequencies from the spill in the vocal mic.

When screening in a live situation I find it works better to screen the guitar amps and bass amp then trying to screen the drums, I usually only put a waist height screen around the drums and build a box of screens around the amps. Then 7' high screens around the vocals.

If you can get the vocalist out of the room and into somewhere quieter I would do that. I have recorded vocals in the hallway before.

Alan.

The room is 10' x 21'…there's a desk and a few other things that can't really be moved, but it will mostly be open for them. Acoustic screens would visibly block the drummer which wouldn't really work well for the show :/ ..unless you're referring to some type of screen I'm not familiar with.

 

[dudernut]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJTzoWeYAqA
In this video they don't need a drum shield in a relatively small room and don't have any problems. Then again it's very light music and you mention rock music.

Another approach would be to use the rejected side of the mic to your advantage. Most cardiod pattern condenser mics reject the back of the mic very well, as do dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCopcNpzc60
Here, they're using a drum shield in a much bigger space, presumably to keep it out of the horn mics.

I don't really think a drum shield could cause huge phase issues, mainly because of how often they're used in live settings where you don't get a chance to go back and fix the phase in the mix.

If it were me, and I had the option of a drum shield, I would use it ONLY in groups where the drums are extremely loud. In any softer music or jazz, use the other mics as room mics to bring the mix together. If you have the budget for it, or a friend with one, and a band willing to come in one day and experiment with you, do that. Testing it out is better than anything, because only you can find out what works in your space.

Yeah, in some cases, I don't think a screen would be necessary. Louder bands would need some sort of isolation though. I do wish I could get my hands on a shield to try out before shelling out the $300+ for one…Hopefully someone else here has some experience with them...

 

[witzendoz]

The room is 10' x 21'…there's a desk and a few other things that can't really be moved, but it will mostly be open for them. Acoustic screens would visibly block the drummer which wouldn't really work well for the show :/ ..unless you're referring to some type of screen I'm not familiar with.

I usually have drum screens that are about wast height, they are higher then the kick and about the height of the top of the toms. 10' x 21' is a bit smaller then my room (12' x 31') but try setting up with the drums across one end of the room with the amps parked at the other end. Don't try the traditional stage arrangement (drums between amps). Then have the vocals singing across the room (amps to one side drums to the other) that way you will get better rejection on the vocal mic.

As I said, you are better to screen the amps and vocal off from the kit then to try to screen the whole kit.

Here is an article that may help you, I don't follow this way completely as it depends on the shape and size of the room, but the principles are the same. LINK

Alan.

 

[mjbphotos]

Are you really set on recording the vocals at the same time as everything else? Let the lead vocalist sing/track while the whole band plays, but use it as a scratch track, and retrack just the vocalist later. For the video, selective editing will allow it to look like it was all done at once.

 

[dudernut]

Are you really set on recording the vocals at the same time as everything else? Let the lead vocalist sing/track while the whole band plays, but use it as a scratch track, and retrack just the vocalist later. For the video, selective editing will allow it to look like it was all done at once.

I was trying to get it all as an authentic take, but I would definitely be open to that idea if it comes to it! I experimented a little bit today by having my kids bang on the drums while I sang into a both a 58 and a Beta 58 to hear how much it picked up the drums. I was pleasantly surprised! I faced the drums, and it rejected the sound quite a bit. That could easily be done during filming. Plus I was quite close to the drums for the test…with plenty of room to space things out if necessary. I'm going to give things a test run with my own band in a few weeks…we're pretty loud, and it'll give us some free and easy content to post

 

[witzendoz]

I was trying to get it all as an authentic take, but I would definitely be open to that idea if it comes to it! I experimented a little bit today by having my kids bang on the drums while I sang into a both a 58 and a Beta 58 to hear how much it picked up the drums. I was pleasantly surprised! I faced the drums, and it rejected the sound quite a bit. That could easily be done during filming. Plus I was quite close to the drums for the test…with plenty of room to space things out if necessary. I'm going to give things a test run with my own band in a few weeks…we're pretty loud, and it'll give us some free and easy content to post

If you set the vocal up so that the vocalist back is to the corner (mic is facing into the corner) the spill will be reduced a lot, you will need to have some absorbent material in the corner behind the singer to stop the sound bouncing out of the corner into the mic. Preferably a bass trap type design. As I said earlier, try reversing the phase of the vocal mic and see which phase setting gives the best rejection, I found this completely by accident when tracking live vocals during a cover band demo (all Live).

Alan

 

[dudernut]

If you set the vocal up so that the vocalist back is to the corner (mic is facing into the corner) the spill will be reduced a lot, you will need to have some absorbent material in the corner behind the singer to stop the sound bouncing out of the corner into the mic. Preferably a bass trap type design. As I said earlier, try reversing the phase of the vocal mic and see which phase setting gives the best rejection, I found this completely by accident when tracking live vocals during a cover band demo (all Live).

Alan

Perfect, thanks! The room is completely treated…traps are virtually floor to ceiling in the corners.