Drum Recording

dsealer

New member
Could use some advice on drum micing. I've got 6 mics on my drums. 2 over heads (L&R), kick, snare ( on top), 1 over large tom and floor tom and 1 mic over 2 smaller tom's.
I get some bleed in from one mic to the other. So, basically most mics pick up something other than what they are intended to pick up.
My question is, how do I overcome that situation? More mics, less mics? Would putting a gate on each mic help?
Anxious for some feedback!
Thanks,
Don.....
 
Hi dsealer,
The first thing to do is work out if it's really a problem.
Usually bleed isn't a big problem and, if it is, there's usually something specific that can be tweaked or fixed to make it acceptable.

Everyone's approach is different but generally it's accepted that the overheads capture the kit - Bleed there isn't really a concern.

For tom mics I know a lot of people gate regardless. That's your call. I usually do to be fair.

Kick and snare mics (and hihat if there is one) I usually won't gate.
Snare and hihat are usually the most likely to be problem so I'll be careful and close with mic position and sometimes choose a narrower-than-cardioid mic, if necessary.
Careful selection of hihat can help, it it's too loud, and even repositioning the thing to be a few inches higher or farther away from the snare can make a huge difference.

If you've got a hi-hat-basher then you're fighting the odds. Have a word with the drummer if that's a problem.

Don't underestimate the impact of the small changes.

If you still want to gate after all that then cool - strokes for folks.
Every genre, and engineer, is different but just don't assume that bleed = bad. :)
 
but just don't assume that bleed = bad. :)[/QUOTE]
Yea I do understand there will always be some bleed through. I guess I was wondering what others do to minimize it. I appreciate your thoughts. I'll make some adjustments on the snare/high hat mic.
Thanks,
Don.....
 
Bleed is ambience that you like.
Ambience is bleed you don't like.

All you can do is point the mics toward the toms, pointing away from the cymbals.

Also, there is no way to get complete isolation. The trick is to get more of what you are pointing the mics at than the other stuff around the kit.

It also helps when the drummer plays with the appropriate dynamics.
 
That's your overheads and you may not need them considering the other 4 cover pretty well. If the room is small, you really dont need them. The problem is if you think you need OH for cymbals as you turn them up in the mix you will bring up the whole kit. That will mitigate some of what your other 4 mics are doing for you.
 
I would advise the opposite. Use the overheads to get the kit, and then fill in with the close mics.

If you get rid of the overheads and use the tom mics to get the cymbals, you can't EQ the toms a lot without making the cymbals sound strange. Example: if you want more attack from the toms and add a bunch of 3-4k, think of what adding a bunch of upper mids to the cymbals is going to sound like.
 
I would advise the opposite. Use the overheads to get the kit, and then fill in with the close mics.

If you get rid of the overheads and use the tom mics to get the cymbals, you can't EQ the toms a lot without making the cymbals sound strange. Example: if you want more attack from the toms and add a bunch of 3-4k, think of what adding a bunch of upper mids to the cymbals is going to sound like.

To me, this makes more sense and seems like a solid approach.
 
What I like to do is:
1. Use a good room to record the drums
2. Use overheads to get the best representation of the kit and,
3. Close-mic each drum, hi-hat and ride
4. Record the performance into ur DAW
5. Export all of ur close-mic tracks (I.e., not overheads).
6. Go buy Superior Drummer 3 from Toontrack.
7. Install Superior Drummer 3.
8. Using the Tracker feature of SD3, import your close mic tracks
9. Replace the close mics with SD3’s sounds.
10. Keep your overhead mics (although u can just replace the crashes w SD3’s crashes) if you want. You can even recreate your drummer’s Kit within SD3 and save it for later use again.

I realize not everyone has an extra $500 lying around for SD3. But not many within this forum has all the mics, gear, money and sampling experience to get the sounds they are trying so hard to get... sounds that SD3 has invested in so u can go straight into creating.

That’s my $.02. ��
 
6. Go buy Superior Drummer 3 from Toontrack.
There are plenty of other solutions for drum replacement. ;)

I have always said that if I ever needed more than 3-4 mics on a kit - like if I really wanted that close, squashed, hyped sound - I'd rather use triggers.
 
Depending on the drum part you can just cut around the toms in your daw if they're not playing alot. Easier and more final than using a gate which might need adjusting as you turn tom tracks up and down.
 
Treat the drum kit as a single source instrument. The mics are just to ensure that you capture it all. The player of the kit should hit the drums at the same volume, for example the snare should be hit at the same volume as the toms, the hats at a volume that suits the volume of the kit. Good drummers do this (alas a lot don't). In fact if you have a good drummer you will pick up the kit using 3 mics, 2 x OH and a Kick, or 4 if you use the Glynn Johns method. Having the extra close mics is a good thing if you want to add a little tone to each drum, however this is secondary to the sound of the overheads.

I don't usually use gates, but sometimes I gate the tom mics if there is a little ringing from a tom, I usually try to fix this before recording but sometimes it turns up during tracking.

Alan.
 
I can only tell you that if I was in your situation I would personally just go down to a 4 piece kit and try to separate the cymbals from the shells (by raising the cymbals away from the shells) to get rid of as much bleed as I could. I would personally have 2 well recorded toms (cheaper to get new heads anyway) than 4 that I had to compromise on due to lack of inputs or mics.

I mainly do metal so the whole approach of treating the drumset like one instrument doesn't work for me personally when trying to make modern metal tracks, a 4 piece works just fine for metal though.

Also consider where you point the back of your mic. Cardioid mics reject from thier immediate backside so if you can point a snare drum mic's cable end at your high hats that will help in getting rid of bleed. Same with the tom mics, point the cable end at the cymbals (while still pointing it at the center of the tom head of course).

One final thought: a drum set that's in tune tends to do better with keeping bleed to acceptable levels than one where the tuning creates more than optimal resonant frequencies that ring out in other drums. I change top heads at least once a year, and reso heads around every 3. If your heads are old change them out, at the very least do the batter heads on all the toms and snare (kick might be ok, plus it's expensive to change that one so I get it).
 
One final thought: a drum set that's in tune tends to do better...
I know that of course the tuning of the heads make a real difference in how they resonate and therefore speak. Ideally the drum should be tuned in the room it's going to be played in to really get the best out of it. I also have read that the relative tuning between top and bottom heads can make a big difference in the sound and the dynamic envelope (attack vs sustain) of the hits. What I don't know is how to tell from listening if a problem I'm hearing could be fixed by tuning. Not all drummers - especially in the low budget circles I run in - really understand those things very well either. It would be really nice if I could tell them something like "Let's try tightening that bottom head to make it a little punchier" or whatever, but I just don't know enough about it.

Are there any videos or anything out there that go through that kind of thing with decent audio examples that might help me (and hopefully others) get a better clue about that?
 
This is how I record. But I was refering to the mix and didnt say it well. If you are already getting a lot of room bleed from iso mics you do dont need to mix in as much OH.
 
Yeah I was really afraid you'd just come back with "how to tune a drum". That's not what I asked for. What I'm looking for is "why to tune a drum" or "how to tell if a drum needs to be tuned". Like, this drum sounds like shit, and that's because...
 
Yeah I was really afraid you'd just come back with "how to tune a drum". That's not what I asked for. What I'm looking for is "why to tune a drum" or "how to tell if a drum needs to be tuned". Like, this drum sounds like shit, and that's because...

Drums are a tough one man... To answer you last question is easy. Either the drum is just shit, has a mechanical issue, or most commonly just out of tune.

The problem with drums is that there is no one solid 'right' way to tune them. But there are a thousand ways to 'not' tune them...

A 40 year session drummer was just in my studio last night that just got a brand new Black Beauty. He had it tuned the way he liked it. Bonham style. But the client wanted more of an ACDC tone. He had no idea how to do that so I tuned it down to make it work.

I could really only suggest that if it sounds bad, try tuning differently. And of course listen for loose mounts and shitty/beaten heads.
 
My usual technique is to ask the drummer "Is that really how you want that to sound?" and then just try to capture what they're giving me and figure out how to make it fit the production. More often it's about fitting the rest of the production to the drums. :)

But a lot of my clients just aren't all that experienced or knowledgeable with how to get what they want, and I really don't know how to help. I can tell if a drum isn't working, but I'm not the guy to tell you how to fix it.
 
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