Drum Mics help?

C

COA23

New member
Hello, everybody!

I'm the vocalist and guitarist of Metal band Children Of Aries.

We are upgrading our studio/rehearsal space and microphones seem to be the logical place to start. We'll be treating the room as well, so if you have any advice on that, please don't hesitate to give it.

My primary focus for mic ideas is the drum kit, as I figure at least a few of the mics I get could be used for bass and guitar. Versatility is a plus, especially if that versatility includes vocals and guitars.

My overall budget for the upgrade at the moment is $1300US roughly. This is what I have bought so far:

Interface:
Tascam US-16x08 $318 (plus shipping from Amazon)

DAW:
Reaper: Small Business License $60

Mics:
Shure SM57 $120 (plus shipping from Amazon)

These are the mics I'm needing:

Kick:
The battle of the kick mics rages between the AKG D112 and the Audix D6. The AKG was used on two Metallica records that I love, Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning. The D6's EQ sounds great. I would love to be able to shape my own sound, instead of have a mic that's already EQ'd, but then again the D6 sounds lovely

Other kick options include:
-CAD KBM412 - I've heard good things about this one, especially for the price. It's really thick/fat sounding. I'm sure I could EQ it or mic the drum to get more of a beater sound, right?
-Shure Beta 52a - Can come in a pack with three more 57s, which could end up being toms.

Overheads:
This one is less clear of a decision. There's a few mics I'm looking at for this: Audio-Technica AT2020 (could also double as a vocal mic), AKG Perception 170 (maybe 3 or 4 of these to mic the hats and ride, if I have enough channels), Samson C02 (was recommended by a home recording website), or the CAD M179. I'm leaning towards the AT2020s, but the CAD has been highly recommended by others.

Toms:
This is the part causing me the most trouble. I would love to get three Sennheiser MD421s for toms, but I just cannot afford it. I'm buying through Amazon and they're expensive there. Someone also recommended 2 Audix D2s and 1 Audix D4. This is a tempting idea, as I could get a 5 pack of Audix mics and have the D6 and an i5 as well. I'm seriously thinking about CAD TSM411s, maybe 2 TSMs and 1 M179 for the floor. TSMs are around $50 a pop and people seem to really like them. There's also the Sennheiser e604 which can come in a 3 pack.

Thanks for all the help. Sorry the post was so long. Lol. I've been doing lots of research.
 
Metal? \m/

I suggest you add SSD Trigger to your list. You can add samples or replace to get the sound you want.

To be honest, I don't even bother with trying to get a kick drum to sound like I want anymore. Makes more sense to spend the money on the software that has the ability to make it happen.

I moved from CO1's to Shure KSM141's and that made a huge difference in the clarity of the whole kit.

M179 is my favorite floor tom mic. I typically use SM57's for rack toms and have a MD421 that I actually use for a ride mic as I do not have more of them.
 
The only thing I feel strongly about is NOT cheaping on the overhead mics. They capture the whole kit and therefore (even in metal) are the most important mic to not be a POS.

Other than that the D6 is great, I loath the D112 (have it and hate it on kick). The beta52a is a little to much body without enough attack in my opinion. I have no other experience with kick mics sans a subkick.

SM57 mics actually work really well on rack toms, the D2 is good and those e604 mics are pretty good as well (I have experience with all 3, they work well)

Floor tom (16" or larger) that D4 you mentioned, Jimmy's mention of the cad is good, I use a D112 and like it, if you don't mind losing a little low end even the sm57 or e604 works well here as well.

Snare, either the i5 or 57 is good. If you want to mic the bottom you can either duplicate or go with something else.
 
First off, anything made by CAD can be disregarded. Drum sounds are too important to use low quality mics, especially when good mics aren't that much more money.

All the kick mics you mentioned will work fine. You have to realize that placement has a lot to do with how the mic responds. The D112 needs to be inside the kick, a couple inches from the batter head. A beta 52 needs to be placed right in the vent hole, if you place it like a d112, it will sound crap. The audix also likes to sit at the vent hole.

I know you like those metallica albums, but is that really the sound you are going for 30 years later? (the sound, not the feel or the emotion you get listening to the album, the sound)

57 on the snare is standard. See if you can locate used ones, they last forever so finding used ones for $50ea isnt a problem. (hell I've probably got a few I could sell you)

My favorite tom mics are the sennheiser 604's ( after the 421) but the audix work fine. 57's sound fine, but are sometimes hard to place because of their size.

Overheads, I prefer pencil condensers, which can also be used for acoustic guitar and other things, but large diaphragm condensers can work well too. These can double as vocal mics, it might be worth buying all the mics used just to get decent overheads that can pull double duty.
 
Farview said:
First off, anything made by CAD can be disregarded. Drum sounds are too important to use low quality mics, especially when good mics aren't that much more money.

I could not disagree more. The M179 is tremendous on toms and can be had for as little as $110 on Evilbay.

I am going to go off the resrevation a bit here and suggest stuff people usually don't.

EV N/D 468 for toms: cheap, easy to place and excellent off axis rejection. $80-100 used.
EV RE15: trust me, if you see one for less than $175 in good shape, get it. Get two. Cool for non traditional micing techniques and guitar amps and vintage sounding vox and...

Blue "Kickball" for floor toms. Excellent open sound. Not for that ultra focused 70's sound but hey, who really likes the sound of a Don Henly drum kit? The Blue "ball" is also decent on toms but is also great for loud guitar cabs. Do not get the "8 ball", sounds like ass. Get the Latvian made ones as the quality control is better than the later chinese models.

Audio Technica AT 3035 for overheads/ room mics. Nice and open without that harsh "Chinese" top end. $100 each used.

Shure Beta 56 for snare. I like it better on the bottom with an Audix D2 or SM 57 on top.

MXL R44 ribbon for a room mics or "underheads". You have to do the headbasket mod, damp the ringing in the body and swap out the stock transformer with a Cinemag to make it sound great. Ribbon tension is key as well but man that mic can sound great on a ton of different sources. Expect to pay about $300 for a modded one or a used one and the cost of mods. Bought a used one for $80, paid $60 for the transformer and 20 for ribbon material. If you are brave you can mod it yourself; I did the mods myself in about 30 minutes. A good preamp with at least 60dB clean gain is needed. My Syteks barely have enough but sound real nice. A cloudlifter or Trion Fethead in line pre helps but will cost $100 or more.

AT, Crown or Shure "PZM" or "boundry" mic. Lay it on a pillow in a kick and love it. Or not.

Oktava MC-012 for overheads, nice smooth sdc. I like the omni capsules but the room must sound good, if not go with the cardioid caps. Hypercardiod cap is great for hi-hat. Almost everybody likes these so not such an outlier.
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cafehonda said:
I could not disagree more. The M179 is tremendous on toms and can be had for as little as $110 on Evilbay.
Click to expand...
I think they are very thin and pinched sounding. You could get e604's for the same price and they sound much better.

cafehonda said:
EV N/D 468 for toms: cheap, easy to place and excellent off axis rejection. $80-100 used.
Click to expand...
These are awesome, I don't know why everyone was using them in the early 90's, then they just disappeared.

[/QUOTE]
 
There you go. Proof that drum miking is soooooooo much personal preference. Don't buy this, do buy that, and then vice versa. I have a few kick mics around, and use the 112. However, my recording are NEVER metal, and I've never managed to get a sound from it that would work for metal without masses of eq faffing around. The Shure seems to have more depth at the bottom to me. Tom wise, I'd like some 420s. but I tend to use Sennheiser 604s, they work for me, however a friend has some of the tiny AKGs, and they sound nice.

So you have a problem - and really the only thing to do is try a few and then buy the ones that work best for you.

I'm not sure I would buy all my mics via Amazon - I can't think why you would do this because invariably they can be sourced cheaper direct from proper sources. Alan Parsons uses STC/Coles ribbons as overheads - my ribbons are far to precious to risk, and he has enough money to not worry, and I don't - so my O/Hs are small condensers, and I have two or three different ones that all sound quite similar.
 
I tend to EQ my kicks heavily for metal no matter what mic I use, so it really doesn't matter which kick mic you use. You will EQ it pretty heavily, just slightly differently for each mic. As long as the mic will handle the SPL and pick up the low end, you can make the sound do what you need to.
 
Farview said:
I tend to EQ my kicks heavily for metal no matter what mic I use, so it really doesn't matter which kick mic you use. You will EQ it pretty heavily, just slightly differently for each mic. As long as the mic will handle the SPL and pick up the low end, you can make the sound do what you need to.
Click to expand...

I personally don't even bother 'fighting' with a kick mic's sound anymore. I just blend it with a sample that already sounds perfect for any particular project. Usually not even metal.

As far as the M179 is concerned, I find it one of the CAD mic's that actually works perfectly for floor toms in my experience. I will grab a e604 to compare. :)
 
I suppose it depends on what sound you are going for. I always want to capture all the low end I can. That may not be what everyone needs.

As far as metal kicks go, I just suck out a bunch of 8-900hz, add a bunch of shelf at 8k, add some 50hz to taste and run that I to a compressor. It's not much of a fight. Slower songs get more low end,faster ones less.
 
I use an Audix DP7 drum mic kit and so far, I don't find it lacking in anything. For the kick drum, the position ranges from inside the sound hole to a foot outside it. Depends what you have stuffed inside the kick as well.

The suggestion to use SSD Trigger is good and can give you practically ANY kick drum sound you want... but at the end of the day, SSD recorded real drums to get that so you should be able to as well.

Another suggestion is parallel compression along with EQ to shape the sound that you have. Or get a new kick drum? :D
 
Another suggestion is parallel compression along with EQ to shape the sound that you have. Or get a new kick drum? :D[/QUOTE]


Yes, I almost always use NY (parallel) compression on a second drum buss, at least for rock, metal and modern country. I usually use a light compressor on the drum buss and use the heavily compressed kick and snare on the parallel buss to add in punch.
 
I'm so, so sorry for missing all these great replies. Please, forgive me!




Here's an update.

I bought a Shure SM7. It's gonna be my vocal microphone, and also a candidate for kick drum and guitar microphone.

I added an Audix D6 to the budget, but had to increase the budget to $1,600 to do this.

I also added a Heil PR20 after hearing it in a guitar cab mic shootout on YouTube. It sounded so good, I have to try it for myself. I'm also going to try it for my live/practice/rehearsal vocal microphone. Hopefully, the feedback isn't too high.

I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts are about the Avantone ATOM. Haven't heard much about it, but I'd be interested in clipping it on the floor tom. It's an $80 mic.




Here's my big question for this post.

Does anyone have any experience using Sennheiser e609s on rack toms? Saw them being used on Metallica's Black album and became intrigued. Yes, I know, the album is 20 years old, but the sound is much more "modern" than the other albums I mentioned earlier.




Back to the budget:

Right now, with the budget the way it is, I'm over budget by $52. It's not much if you look at the budget itself, but I think it's only logical to try to stay in budget, especially knowing I'm going to have to buy studio monitors. (I've already picked those out.)

2 Sennheiser e609s (Silver $99 version)
1 Audix D4 ($148) or 1 CAD M179, which would knock the over down by $20
2 Audiotechnica AT2020s ($99 each)
1 Heil PR20 ($101)
1 Audix D6 ($199)




I apologize if my post is hard to read. I'm trying to keep it organized lol
 
I am not trying to sell you anything, but the M179 has multiple pattern options as well. Might be something beneficial later... IDK

Mind you, I only use it for floor toms myself, and purchased it based upon many reviews on forums that find it good for this.

Have not tried it on many other sources myself. It is definitely not one of the low end mic's that are included in one of those CAD-$300 drum mic kits that Fairview spoke of.

It has been a good mic from my limited use of it. If it can capture a floor and it's glory, I bet it could do other things as well. Like farts n stuff. :)
 
witzendoz said:
You could have a look at the Sennheiser e604 for the high toms?

Alan.
Click to expand...

I have considered those. They're only a few dollars less than a CAD M179 for one, which isn't a bad thing. Another thing they have going for them is they come with the mounts attached.

One advantage that the e609 has on them is that the e609 can be used to great effect on guitars, and if I decide to use an amp for bass, to get some more high end out of the bass sound. I don't know what else an e604 could be used for, other than toms.
 
Looking at your list, have you thought about this: Using 4 mics to start, Kick and snare and two overheads. Start there. I found micing the toms might not be needed. Between the bleed from the snare mic and the overheads and the seldom use of toms, tom micing really could be reduced, maybe eliminated.

Just a thought you might want to try before you buy. You can always go and buy them later. Look at Greg's how to record drum thread: https://homerecording.com/bbs/equipment-forums/drums-and-percussion/gregs-general-guide-rock-drums-newbies-273077/?highlight=drums
 
The e604's are really good Tom mics. You will not have to upgrade in the future, ever.

I got the 504's (the predecessor) in the mid 90's and used them on everything up until I stopped recording last year.

Besides the built in mount, their size makes them easier to place than some mics. I made myself some mic cables with right angle plugs to keep the profile even lower.
 
DM60 said:
Looking at your list, have you thought about this: Using 4 mics to start, Kick and snare and two overheads. Start there. I found micing the toms might not be needed. Between the bleed from the snare mic and the overheads and the seldom use of toms, tom micing really could be reduced, maybe eliminated.

Just a thought you might want to try before you buy. You can always go and buy them later. Look at Greg's how to record drum thread: https://homerecording.com/bbs/equipment-forums/drums-and-percussion/gregs-general-guide-rock-drums-newbies-273077/?highlight=drums
Click to expand...


I have considered this. The option to have the tom mics there in the mix if needed is really attractive. The ability to EQ, compress, and give them some reverb so they can thunder by in drum fills is something I'd like.
 
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