Double miking upright piano- phase issues

GeorgeYekcnir

New member
Hey folks! I have 2 condenser mics that I will be using to mic my upright piano. My only concern is phase issues as I have never double mic'd before. Are there general rules with mic positioning for avoiding cancellation? I was reading on another post that phase cancellation is typically due to amateur mic placement. What is it that the amateurs do wrong in comparison to the professionals? ....Also what would be the best way to check for phase issues in post recording?
 
Thanks. Good stuff.
I'd like to ask what Leavell is getting to with 'mics at 45 degrees there?
It's not mic-to-mic, he said they're aimed straight down I believe, and they don't seem to be rotated horizontally that much re the piano- But not that rotation horizontally would do anything. (on a ribbon yes but not round capsules.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious. -Wouldn't be the first time :)
Miking Grand Piano | How To Mic A Grand Piano For Recording
 
My only concern is phase issues as I have never double mic'd before.
One real good place for anyone starting out would be look into XY stereo pair placement. Known as a 'coincident pair, it's very useful and it's main attribute is no phase problems as both caps/mics are close together.
It's in the first link Keith posted.
 
My last Grand Piano recording was done with a stereo mic above middle C, I really liked the sound. The same thing could be achieved by an X-Y pair of mics.

Alan.
 
This seems to have some good ideas.

Recording Techniques For Upright Piano |

I've done the spaced pair behind the piano, much like the two condensers in the above article if you scroll down. But I used two Crown PZM boundary mics against a wall because space was limited. I didn't have all that open space to use LDCs.
 
This seems to have some good ideas.

Recording Techniques For Upright Piano |

I've done the spaced pair behind the piano, much like the two condensers in the above article if you scroll down. But I used two Crown PZM boundary mics against a wall because space was limited. I didn't have all that open space to use LDCs.

Yep, the spaced pair technique is the way I mic an upright, I have tried the overhead approach but you get more keyboard noise and hammer noise depending on the actual piano. But if the overhead sound suits the recording by all means do it.

Alan.
 
I did get a pretty good sound from a spaced pair of SDCs on the front with the top front panel off. But I really hate all the clunks and squeaks you get with some pianos, and micing from the back seems to help minimize that.
 
If it's just a good piano in a good room, backing up a few feet can help with some of the mechanical noises. Of course the pedal can be more prominent depending on the player, instrument, and floor.

Like any acoustic instrument, there's often some learning required on the player's part, too, if they've not been recorded before.
 
Phase affects just about everything that touches audio. It's something you really have to hear to be able to identify. An interesting tip I learned recently was that if you know something has wacky phase, become allergic to that sound.

When using a spaced pair or similar (drums, multiple mics) for capturing a source, your chain should have a "phase" control somewhere on it. Circle with a slash through it. A lot of preamps and some direct boxes and other such gear have this on each channel as well as many audio interfaces. If not, there should be one in your DAW channel if you're recording to a computer. Listening to both mics in mono, you can flip the phase of one of the mics. These controls work as a polarity invert, so the phase will either be 0 degrees or 180 degrees.

If one position sounds more or less full, or just gels better or something, it doesn't really matter where you leave the control. It's easy to hear a drop in low end when things are out of phase. If you were to use a coincident mic technique like x/y, you'd want to leave both channels at 0 degrees. Flipping one of the channels should be a good demo of what "out of phase" sounds like on many sources. A strat in the "out of phase" position is another.

If you're getting good sounds I wouldn't get too hung up on phase. It's worthwhile to do a quick check and learn what you're listening for, especially when recording drums. Depending on the relative distances of the mics to the source and each other, sometimes very small movements of one of the mics will change the tone quite a lot as the phase relationship changes. The best thing in that scenario is to monitor the signal from a remote location and have an assistant move the mics until it sounds right. The idea isn't to get the phase perfect so much as good. Perfect phase isn't possible a lot of the time anyway. Moving the mics is the best way to tweak it. As the mics get closer to each other relative to the source, the phase interaction gets wackier.

Again, using a coincident mic technique like x/y is a good way to not have to worry about phase, but there are merits to other techniques. It's subjective. Comes down to what you like.
 
This really about what type of piano sound you want. The real sound of that piano in the space, or a more detailed close-up sound. The worst bit, however is that you cannot pre-plan any mic technique until you hear the instrument. Most pianos and virtually all uprights are overstrung, so because the strings cross over, mic position can flatter our harm what you are doing. Add in that the best sound position for sound could also be the worst for picking up poorly adjusted dampers, or pedals with the return felt stops worn out. You need time to experiment. A Yamaha technician who came with a very good grand on a live show I was working on told me the pianist would be playing with the lid on half stick, and would not under any circumstances accept any mics on booms - however, there was a solution. He asked for my best pencil condenser - I had an AKG 451, and he threaded the mic cable around the thick strut UNDER the sound board, and then tapped the mic to it's own cable, pointing upon at the sound board. I was gob-smacked. He smiled and said go our front and have a listen. It worked amazingly well and sounded very realistic to what we heard in the room. He explained it ONLY worked on this piano, and trying it on similar ones later - he was correct. I would never have tried this - so you must try things out. He explained to me that the sound of the piano doesn't come from the strings, it comes from the soundboard, and the strings just start things off.

I did one recording of a grand piano on full stick with two condensers - and it sounded really good - and I only discovered clearing away that both of the mics were the wrong way around in the suspension mounts and were pointing UP at the lid! So never discount anything and don't follow any rules without listening properly.
 
I played around with a bunch of configurations for a fine upright piano. The one I stuck with was removing the front music desk and cover and placing the mics facing E2 and E6 about a foot at about the pianist's ear level. I supplemented that with a couple of omnis in back of the piano about 4-5 feet back. Finally, to get some better bass transients I put a boundary mic inside the piano near the bottom of the bass bridge and mixed that in just enough to warm it up.
 
Hey folks! I have 2 condenser mics that I will be using to mic my upright piano. My only concern is phase issues as I have never double mic'd before. Are there general rules with mic positioning for avoiding cancellation? I was reading on another post that phase cancellation is typically due to amateur mic placement. What is it that the amateurs do wrong in comparison to the professionals? ....Also what would be the best way to check for phase issues in post recording?

Remove the front of the piano. Go XY config midway across the room. If you catch too much ambience, go XY above your head as you're sitting infant of it. That'll be in phase. If it sounds funny, invert the polarity on one of the 2 channels in your DAW.
 
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