Do you edit your bass lines?

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I think some of us are just trying to protect and defend the legacy of actually being able to play a part, while some of you make jokes about it as if being able to play is a bad thing.

"Being able to play" v. "being able to play is a bad thing." "Defending the legacy" v. "piecing together parts note by note." And always--always--"us v. them." Hence a potentially useful discussion of a home studio recording technique in the Recording Techniques sub-forum of the Home Recording site becomes an opportunity to posture and divide, to imply that the people who do it one way are better and purer than the people who do it some other way. There are no opinions, only positions, and every discussion becomes a clash of ideology. It doesn't have to be this way.

Proof is in the product. Taras has written, recorded and posted what must be fifteen songs on this forum in the last year. The quality of his work speaks for itself. I have posted fifteen. Think what you will about the quality of those. Neither of us is telling you how you should do it. We are just explaining how we do it, for the benefit of someone who asked. I would say to anyone, if what you are doing is working for you, keep doing it.

For any who are interested, I'll post a link to a Youtube video about a recording session with Paul Leim, a Nashville drummer and producer. He talks about the importance of sessions players who can nail it in one take. When studio time is money and budgets are limited, you want people who can walk in, plug in, read the chart, and produce a pro-level take in one go.

I am in awe of those people. I really am. But I am nowhere near that level. I also don't have a team of A-list cats to come in and play with me. While I'm fortunate to have found people lately who are interested in collaborating, for the most part it has been all me. My mortgage is my studio cost. But I'm also under time pressure, because I write a lot of songs and want to realize them in recordings. So I do my best with the techniques that are available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWMKAX8Chuc
 
Most arrogant and egotistical statement of the year. You don't know that.
'If' that were true, you'd be in high demand and making a great living as a session player.
:D

...

you must not understand the word "context" then. The context there is that some were assuming they are "better" because they don't have the need to edit anything at any time. Their "chops", or whatever, are so superior that any editing of time is beyond them. I say to them, show me how you are superior then...I can hold my own there. Can you? Did I make a thread saying what I said, or was it perhaps in defense of the time-editing necessity that arises...? Reading comprehension. Context. These are important.

You were late to the party... i can't blame you.
 
that really doesn't make sense.

1. he asked a question
2. people gave their opinions
3. he decides what he thinks

what am i missing....

Exactly.
i can answer why i asked the question. flatfeet, just ask me directly in a respectful way next time if you want to know the answer to a question.

i asked it because i felt conflict over editing the notes. in my heart, i feel editing them is not ideal, and i'd love if the part were played perfect right away. yet, i have both ocd (which does compulse me to look at the grid) and a timeline of 30 days to lay down all bass and drums for 10 songs. so i wanted to know if editing the bass was a legitimate approach, or if it results in other problems down the road or feels less human, etc.

I got the answer. Some people practice the part until it's perfect, then record it. Some practice it a few times, play it, and edit it. And some are in between. I'll have to decide based on how the edited take sounds vs how much time I can dedicate to the bass before this deadline. At least now I know that all approaches are valid and people get good results with all of them unless the bass line is an absolute mess.

That's really what I was wondering -- if it were possible to get a human feel if I do have to edit. I don't want to edit, so on some level I agree with the people who are dogmatic, but there's a practicality to this, and it's time. I live in an apartment and can't make noise, and I finally got an opportunity to make noise in a few weeks, and I need all the rhythm foundation done so I can lay down loud guitar parts at that point. Maybe I should have explained all that in the first post.

I need to go get to work on this now, but thanks for all the responses.
 
...

you must not understand the word "context" then. The context there is that some were assuming they are "better" because they don't have the need to edit anything at any time. Their "chops", or whatever, are so superior that any editing of time is beyond them. I say to them, show me how you are superior then...I can hold my own there. Can you? Did I make a thread saying what I said, or was it perhaps in defense of the time-editing necessity that arises...? Reading comprehension. Context. These are important.

You were late to the party... i can't blame you.


Oh, I understand context. I can read and comprehend also. :D

What I took issue with was your blanket statement, and I guote, " There is not a person on this forum who can play some guitar part that I cannot. "

Your words not mine. That sentence is spoken as 'fact'

I dont believe it to be true. First off, there are a lot of people on this forum who are fine players. Second, there are people who are on this forum who don't post music, so you'd never even hear them play. Third, there are many on this forum who 'lurk'. Players that you don't even know they exist.

So how could you come up with such a presumptive statement without even hearing everyone on this forum play? Your statement is merely an assumption on your part.

That's the part that got me thinking it was an arrogant and egotistical statement.

Has nothing to do with 'coming late to the party' or comprehension, or context.

You did make that statement.

:D
 
Nothing wrong with editing.....if needed. We do have tools available that weren't in the past.

On the other hand why does it 'need' to be perfect? Some of the finest recorded tracks of all time had 'flaws'

However, playing it right is better.

If you can't do it in the relaxed, comfortable environment of your home studio, how the fuck are you gonna pull it off live under pressure?

As to the original thread topic, above are my opinions and veiws.
:D
 
I am a reasonably adept bass player, and most times I track bass just fine . . . everything sits nicely together. But there are time I listen and cringe, because a bass note has come in late, or early, for unfathomable reasons. I can always drop in a note correctly; that's easy enough to do. But with the wayward note sitting there in front of me, it takes maybe two seconds to shift it. So that's what I do.
 
Pardon my DAW trickery ignorance, but how do you move "one note" without leaving a gap behind it or interfering with what's in front of it?
 
Pardon my DAW trickery ignorance, but how do you move "one note" without leaving a gap behind it or interfering with what's in front of it?

there are several ways of doing it, depending on the length of the note and the notes that surround it.

If it is a long note (like when you are playing one note per bar and the timing is a bit ambiguous so you come in a bit early or a bit late), in Reaper I just split before and after the note, then shift the note into position. This usually means trimming the tail of the preceding note if you are pushing your note forward, or trimming the tail of the note in question if you are pushing it back. You do get a gap either before or after. This gap may or may not be significant. If it is audible, Alt-clicking on the edge of a tail and dragging stretches the note to fill the gap.

Alt-click is also the way to deal with mis-timed notes in a rapid sequence. Make a split on the note before the mistimed note, a split after the mistimed note, then split between the two. The Alt-click over this split to get both notes, then drag to get the mistimed note into position. If the mistimed note was late, this fixes gives it a longer tail, and the preceding note gets a shorter tail. If the mistimed note was early, the reverse is obviously the case.

There is a limit to how much you can stretch or squash a note before it starts sounding weird, but for minor repairs, it works fine.
 
Oh, I understand context. I can read and comprehend also. :D

this offend you so much?

Yngwie Malmsteen isn't a member here, so I don't find it too much of a surprise. That doesn't just go for me, but many, many people here. They are great guitar players and I can't imagine one could "outplay" every other so significantly. Perhaps your playing isn't as up to par, but I don't see how this statement doesn't go for a majority of people here, particularly the ones with 20+ years of experience playing their instrument. With a little practice, I'm confident I could throw back any lick you deliver in a short time period. This is both a statement for myself and many others here who I believe, as you said, are fine players. No one is so far beyond that. If so, they are in the "virtuoso" category.

Anyway, again, the point is that no one here is so good that they would never need any time correction. Practice as long as you would like - perfect time is impossible.

Please, continue dragging something out of context and proportion.
 
... I just split before and after the note, then shift the note into position. This usually means trimming the tail of the preceding note if you are pushing your note forward, or trimming the tail of the note in question if you are pushing it back. You do get a gap either before or after. This gap may or may not be significant. If it is audible, Alt-clicking on the edge of a tail and dragging stretches the note to fill the gap.

yeah like Gecko said, it's super easy and doesn't have to affect what's before or after if you do it precisely. Same here...make cuts before and after it (i only move when there's silence right before and after) and then shift it milliseconds over. I'm usually a little early, so I tend to need to move it to the right a touch. If every note is a long held one, then I will play it until I get it right, but if there are a lot of quick ones, like a running solo part within a verse, I'll nudge the quick notes some if needed.
 
There is a limit to how much you can stretch or squash a note before it starts sounding weird, but for minor repairs, it works fine.

And just to add, it depends on where the part will fit in the mix. Bass parts can take a certain amount of editing and nobody will be the wiser. Lead vocal, not so much.
 
there are several ways of doing it, depending on the length of the note and the notes that surround it.

If it is a long note (like when you are playing one note per bar and the timing is a bit ambiguous so you come in a bit early or a bit late), in Reaper I just split before and after the note, then shift the note into position. This usually means trimming the tail of the preceding note if you are pushing your note forward, or trimming the tail of the note in question if you are pushing it back. You do get a gap either before or after. This gap may or may not be significant. If it is audible, Alt-clicking on the edge of a tail and dragging stretches the note to fill the gap.

Alt-click is also the way to deal with mis-timed notes in a rapid sequence. Make a split on the note before the mistimed note, a split after the mistimed note, then split between the two. The Alt-click over this split to get both notes, then drag to get the mistimed note into position. If the mistimed note was late, this fixes gives it a longer tail, and the preceding note gets a shorter tail. If the mistimed note was early, the reverse is obviously the case.

There is a limit to how much you can stretch or squash a note before it starts sounding weird, but for minor repairs, it works fine.

Wow, I didn't know that alt-click trick and was slicing and moving notes manually and then using crossfades. That's awesome.

Do you ever need to use crossfades when using that technique?
 
this offend you so much?

Yngwie Malmsteen isn't a member here, so I don't find it too much of a surprise. That doesn't just go for me, but many, many people here. They are great guitar players and I can't imagine one could "outplay" every other so significantly. Perhaps your playing isn't as up to par, but I don't see how this statement doesn't go for a majority of people here, particularly the ones with 20+ years of experience playing their instrument. With a little practice, I'm confident I could throw back any lick you deliver in a short time period. This is both a statement for myself and many others here who I believe, as you said, are fine players. No one is so far beyond that. If so, they are in the "virtuoso" category.

Anyway, again, the point is that no one here is so good that they would never need any time correction. Practice as long as you would like - perfect time is impossible.

Please, continue dragging something out of context and proportion.

Lol. Come on dude. Surely you're not this delusional. What are we talking about here anyway? Drumming? Guitar? Bass? I'm pretty confident I could blow your ass through a wall on drums. Real drums. Not some drawn in mouse click stuff. :D

I dominate on bass too. That aint no brag, it's just truth. I think the drummer in me and the bass in me work together.

Guitar? I should be way better than I am. I'm a total hack on guitar, but I hold my own just fine. There's no doubt that there are many people here way better on guitar than me. Maybe even you. Maybe.

As for not needing time correction, that's a pretty broad statement. I never time correct bass or drums or guitar. I just play it. That's not saying I'm the best at anything. That's just my old school play it right mentality. I had no idea you could time stretch bad shit to make it work.

Gecko - thanks for the explanation. My mind is blown. I appreciate the insight but I won't be trying that at all.
 
To answer the original question, if you can't hear that they are off, there is no reason to edit them. If you zoom in hard enough on the DAW, you will find that nothing lines up to anything. However, if you zoom in hard enough, you can get into a situation where you have to define what the start of the note is. Is it when your finger first touches the string, as it's pulling across, when it starts to speak, or when it settles into the note?

Since music is all about listening, that should be how you make the decision if it needs to be edited. No one is listening to the grid and no one will be inspecting the waveforms against it.

Yes...there are several parts to a played note...so which of those parts sound best with the parts of other notes/tracks....is best done by listening.

The DAW can easily fool you into editing with your eyes...and I do think many get caught up with that, so that when aligning tracks/notes...it's done by eye or even worse by eye to a grid.

More times than not, the better grooves have notes that when you zoom in...look out of place...but they're not. :)
 
Do you ever need to use crossfades when using that technique?

There's no need for crossfades. However, you need to pick the point of splitting with care. I go for the silent bit just before a note. And if there is no silent bit, I go for the quietest looking bit. And after you've done it, if the change sounds awkward, you can still shift the split point forwards or backwards to get the most unintrusive transition across the split.
 
The DAW can easily fool you into editing with your eyes...and I do think many get caught up with that, so that when aligning tracks/notes...it's done by eye or even worse by eye to a grid.

Grids are very seductive . . . they seem so 'right'. A note is not out of time if it doesn't line up with the grid, it's out of time if it doesn't fit with the context.
 
Gee this thread kicked off LOL :eatpopcorn:

Just to clarify my comments (Answer #24). I never edit the bass notes to place them in time, part of the feel of the song is that there is a human touch and humans play with small errors.

However if you mess up a couple of notes while playing the whole song by all means drop in the section and play that part again. I often record sessions where I am suddenly asked to play the bass part. To speed this up I often learn the different sections of the song, for example get the intro right, play all the verses, then record all the choruses, bridge parts, etc, so I don't have to remember all the parts and the arrangement. I often don't get a chart and often am working out a bass part at the same time so I don't want to waste session time. Some stuff I get to play on is quite complicated.

There is nothing wrong with dropping in parts, I just find it strange that you would edit notes throughout the song to be in time, playing in time is fundamental to good playing.

Alan.
 
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