Dealing with stubborn musicians

[FromtheSOUTH]

We've all been there.

Now, I'm a musician myself, but I consider myself to be open minded, I can take criticism and enjoy trying new things.

But, certain members of my band (I won't use names, but there are only 2 of them) are just the most stubborn, set-in-their way jockstraps I know.

For example, we were attempting to track a song the other day, just me and the drummer, and I suggested that he plays this particular song with a closed hi-hat instead of open. (Live, the open hat is fine, but recorded it was just plain annoying and loud, and the rest of the kit was lacking because of it)

Well, I just get a death stare and an earful - "You're not the drummer, you're the bass player, I don't write your parts, yadda yadda..."

We argued for a while, I suggested that we record a separate open hat track at low levels, and a couple other reasonable compromises, but I finally gave up.

This is just one example of many.... and don't get me wrong, I love these dudes. We're practically married, and maybe that's part of the problem... But how do you guys deal with this?

[miroslav]

Someone in the band needs to take on the role of the producer/engineer....and that should be someone who understands the differences between playing live VS recording in a studio.
That member should not be a production NAZI...but, members who don't understand recording subtleties/needs should agree to defer to him when there are stalemates about what to do.

If you have too much democracy...."art by vote".... in a creative environment, it's not always a good thing.
Someone has to lead the vision of the production. The whole band can/should discuss the overal, general vision before it is put into play, but little differences of opinon should not turn into battles, and that's where the "producer" has to make the call.

To make it really fair and if everyone wants to be equally involved...each member can take his turn being the producer on a given song, and the guy who can engineer the best, should simply act as the engineer for each of the producers in turn.

[mjbphotos]

Are you all taking joint credit for the song writing? IMO, the person who crafts the original idea/lyrics/chords should get the writing credit and thus have control over some of the things played by others. The lead guitarist who adds a lead part in the middle or end of the song does not get writing credit, neither does the drummer. If you want to give everyone credit on the album/copyright, that's fine, but let the true 'writer' have the say.

Or if the drummer keeps giving you issues, mute his tracks and use EZ Drummer or Superior Drummer!

[FromtheSOUTH]

I agree wholeheartedly.

The problem is, when I try to advance our cause, I'm met with a total lack of cooperation- No one is willing to compromise, on anything.
Its frustrating. My drummer has the drive that I have, the desire to make quality recordings, so for now, that'll do. The guitar player thinks it's a waste of time, so I'm lucky if I can get him to record a thing- let alone get him to put new strings on his guitar and let me fiddle with his knobs and mic placement for an hour. (when he mics his amp, he just turns the mic on, puts it in front of his amp, any old place, and then yells at me when I move it... please just shoot me....)

As for letting the other two 'produce', I'm thinking that will get us nowhere even faster. I guess the real problem is that neither of the two will let me take control, it's like they think all of the reading, vid-watching, and trial and error I've gone through to become a BETTER engineer actually makes me a WORSE engineer. I mean, come on. We've got more than enough gear, 3 pretty decent musicians, and LOTS OF TIME. What's missing? Knowledge, experience (I'm working on it) and COOPERATION!

grrrrrrrrrrrr

[FromtheSOUTH]

Are you all taking joint credit for the song writing? IMO, the person who crafts the original idea/lyrics/chords should get the writing credit and thus have control over some of the things played by others. The lead guitarist who adds a lead part in the middle or end of the song does not get writing credit, neither does the drummer. If you want to give everyone credit on the album/copyright, that's fine, but let the true 'writer' have the say.

Or if the drummer keeps giving you issues, mute his tracks and use EZ Drummer or Superior Drummer!

It's funny, when we're writing, no matter who came up with this riff, or that riff, even if one person has a whole song written out, we always respect each others opinions, come to compromises until it's an arrangement we're all happy with. Then, when I press the record button, the fighting ensues.

I was actually thinking of recording a couple songs all by myself- I can drum and strum a bit too, in addition to slappin da bass. That'd really piss em off, more than EZ drummer would.

[miroslav]

Well...I would then move on and find others to record with...or do it all by yourself if you can.

Endless stubbornness and arguing within a band makes no one the winner with anything.
Have a straight-up talk with them if you are that eager to record, and they're not, or if they are just making it a difficult process.
Maybe they think you're trying to take control...?...or maybe they feel inferior for not knowing as much as you about recording, so they become stubborn rather than acknowledge your direction...?

A little drama in a band may even be a good thing....but if ZERO progress is being made, then it's time to move on.

[DavidK]

just me and the drummer, and I suggested that he plays this particular song with a closed hi-hat instead of open. (Live, the open hat is fine, but recorded it was just plain annoying and loud, and the rest of the kit was lacking because of it)

Well, I just get a death stare and an earful - "You're not the drummer, you're the bass player, I don't write your parts, yadda yadda..."

. But how do you guys deal with this?

I purchased EZ Drummer.

[miroslav]

I purchased EZ Drummer.

So did I...and SD too!

It's not that my drummer was a problem...he just became too hard to schedule to come over and cut tracks, since he's playing in a few different scenarios, and I'm only doing my studio thing. Otherwise, he always took my direction without question...and I always would let him pretty much play what he felt....so when something needed attention, we would reach a compromise very quickly.
We still track together when the time is found...but now I can also do tracks without waiting on him...and he can always come over and re-track later if desired.

[RAMI]

OK, I'm bored so I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I don't disagree or agree with you because I'm not there to see who's doing what.

But is it possible that they think the same thing about you? Could this be a case of all 3 people thinking "I'm a reasonable person, but I can't disagree with this guy without him thinking I'm just trying to start a fight, when all I'm trying to do is get the best possible result for the good of the band". Or even "I don't want to argue, but I've been playing it live like this forever and now he wants to change MY part which always worked. I'd never do that to him".

I'm just throwing that out there, anything's possible....

On a musical note, are you sure the open hi-hat part that worked live really doesn't work recorded? Could it be that it just sounds over-powering in a studio context before the song is mixed, but might actually sound great once everyone else is recorded and mixed?

Again, just throwing that out there.....

[Chili]

I don't think it's time to move on over something like this. It's difficult to find several people who can gel together as a musical band. If musically, you guys are getting along, then you should try to find a way to make it work in other aspects of the band as well. I hear ya when you feel the others won't put any effort into making it work. It's definitely like a marriage and you don't want to walk away from a marriage so quickly. What about the kids??

Let him be the drummer, record him as he wants and if it doesn't sound good. Sample over top of him, then show him the results and see if that changes his approach. Give them a reason to trust your instincts.

Or... call in someone else to record you. Maybe spend some time tracking at a studio with a pro engineer then taking the tracks home and mix them yourself. You can even use the excuse that you want a good sounding room to record the drums in, then use the engineer to convince the drummer to play the part both ways and experiment.