Close micing drums vs. Glyn Johns method for 1st time recording drums??

[Toogy]

I am set to record my first real band including drums next week!! I'm pretty excited but at the same time, really nervous about recording the drums!

I have 7 inputs to work with for recording the drums as I plan to use my 8th input for either scratch guitar or bass for the drummer to play along with.

I was pretty sure I was going to try the Glyn Johns method, but I'm wondering if that is harder for a first timer to pull off? Would I be better off close micing everything (bass, snare, 3 toms and 2 overheads)

Which would you recommend for a first timer when it comes to recording drums?

The style of music is hard-rock alternative style.

Thanks in advance!

 

[saads]

I'm not sure you understand what Glyn Johns is. You can do both with 7 inputs. Get the overheads equidaistant from the snare. One mic directly above the snare, behind the drummer's head, and the other one peeking over the floor tom. Everything else is close mic'd. It's prefectly OK to play around with the positioning of the OHs, as long as you keep them equidistant from the snare.

 

[moresound]

The Glyn Johns method is my favorite set up even for live micing of the drums with some alterations.
This will give you a keeper track with the bass and a scratch track on the other instruments and main vocals.

 

[Greg_L]

The style of music is hard-rock alternative style.

Thanks in advance!

You're gonna want to close mic the kit in addition to using overheads.

 

[Farview]

For any style of music where the drums need to be in-your-face, you should close mic all the drums.

 

[moresound]

You're gonna want to close mic the kit in addition to using overheads.

True this Toogy ..... for the room will play a huge factor with the drum recording and if your room is not ideal close micing will be the way to go.

 

[Dogbreath]

For any style of music where the drums need to be in-your-face, you should close mic all the drums.

yup.
You can use the GJ method along with close micing and get there from here.

 

[Mo Facta]

I'm not sure you understand what Glyn Johns is. You can do both with 7 inputs. Get the overheads equidaistant from the snare. One mic directly above the snare, behind the drummer's head, and the other one peeking over the floor tom. Everything else is close mic'd. It's prefectly OK to play around with the positioning of the OHs, as long as you keep them equidistant from the snare.

And what about the kick? This is where the Glyn Johns method breaks down for me. It's all well and good to have the snare phase aligned but what if the kick is out of phase or if the room sounds bad where one of the overheads are the image will be skewed. I've been doing a spaced pair lately and found that the further away the overheads are placed from the kit the better because the dynamics of the kit evens out overall. The high energy of the cymbals still travels nicely but the mid to low frequencies of the kick and snare that always seem to be skewed when the overheads are close are a bit more even.

If you want a good stereo image with minimal phase shift and and focused center image, there's no better way to go than X/Y, IMO. Just keep in mind that X/Y configurations set to pick up the kit from behind the drummer's back is usually out of phase with the rest of the close mics and needs to be polarity reversed. And I mean both of them.

Cheers

 

[RAMI]

And what about the kick? This is where the Glyn Johns method breaks down for me.

Really? Wow!, you break down pretty easy.

You don't want your kik to come from your overheads anyway. So, if the kik drum is out of phase in your overheads, it doesn't really matter. Your kik drum mic' s going to cover that up. You might have to flip the polarity on the kik mic, but you're probably going to have to do that to the snare mic too.

 

[Mo Facta]

Really? Wow!, you break down pretty easy.

You don't want your kik to come from your overheads anyway. So, if the kik drum is out of phase in your overheads, it doesn't really matter. Your kik drum mic' s going to cover that up. You might have to flip the polarity on the kik mic, but you're probably going to have to do that to the snare mic too.

I'm sorry mate, but, as the tracking engineer, that's for me to decide. I most definitely want my kick drum to come through the overheads because I don't just view them as there for merely the cymbals. Generally I am looking for a balanced presentation of the drums through the overheads, which is why I always start with them and why I feel their placement and tonality is paramount.

And it's a mistake to think that the kicks close mic is going to "cover up" the kick in the overheads, IMO. It's thinking in parts. I prefer to think of the drums holistically as one instrument and the overheads as the wide shot, so to speak. To explain it as simply as I can, if your kick is out of phase in the overheads or if the mics are spaced in such a way that they exhibit different responses due to the room (eg. one is a bit bassier than the other), they are going to offset the kicks close mic when summed together. Soloed, the close mic, provided it is panned dead center, will read equally on both the L and R bus on the meter. Combine it with the overheads that have tonal or phase problems and the kick will read louder on one side than the other. This will work against your phantom image and cause the kick to lack definition and punch.

I will say it again...the placement of the overheads in a drum recording is paramount.

Do not overlook it.

Cheers

 

[RAMI]

I most definitely want my kick drum to come through the overheads because I don't just view them as there for merely the cymbals.

You're talking in extremes. Not worrying about the kik in the overheads, and using the overheads only for cymbals is worlds apart. Realistically,most of the time, you're going to close mic the kik drum and get 90% of your kik sound from it, if not 99%.

Generally I am looking for a balanced presentation of the drums through the overheads...

Yes, I'm well aware of the roll of overheads.

And it's a mistake to think that the kicks close mic is going to "cover up" the kick in the overheads, IMO. It's thinking in parts.

I disagree. I look at it as being realistic about how you're going to end up mixing the song. I'm not going to spend time worrying about something that I know won't matter when I mix. Keep in mind, I'm speaking for myself and what works/doesn't work for me. I'm sure there are many styles of music and approaches to recording that will require spending time on things that I don't fing important for myself.

I prefer to think of the drums holistically as one instrument and the overheads as the wide shot, so to speak.

Yup. we covered that one already.

To explain it as simply as I can, if your kick is out of phase in the overheads or if the mics are spaced in such a way that they exhibit different responses due to the room (eg. one is a bit bassier than the other), they are going to offset the kicks close mic when summed together. Soloed, the close mic, provided it is panned dead center, will read equally on both the L and R bus on the meter. Combine it with the overheads that have tonal or phase problems and the kick will read louder on one side than the other. This will work against your phantom image and cause the kick to lack definition and punch.

I get very little kik in my overheads compared to how much the kik mic gives me. I don't have the problems you're talking about. If my kik (and/or snare) mic are out of phase with my overheads, I flip the polarity. I make sure the snare is in phase in the overheads themselves but don't worry about the kik. I've never heard my bass drum sound weird in any way because of it. If I was doing a style of music where I didn't mic the bass drum, then I would have no choice but to pay attention to the phas of the kik in the overheads.

I will say it again...the placement of the overheads in a drum recording is paramount.

Do not overlook it.

Nobody, including myself, is disagreeing with you on that.

 

[Greg_L]

No one doubts the importance of overheads. But I'm with Rami on the kick. I have yet to hear one killer sounding drum track in a rock song in which the kick is pounding through solely from it's presence in the overheads. It just doesn't happen. Other softer genres, sure. But in a rock song with loud guitars and bass, you're gonna use the hell out of that mic'd kick track.

 

[RAMI]

...funny thing is...after everything else that was said, I forgot to mention that you CAN have both the snare and the kik mic equal distance from the overheads in Glyn Johns. It takes time to get it right, moving the shoulder mic left/right/up/down, etc..., but I used to do it when I first started micing my drums with the Glyn.

 

[mixsit]

I think it is safe to say that it's easier for a little kick misalignment to not be noticed than snare- but again, depends on the mix. The 'string rotation thing does take both into the placement aid, but on some kit's kick/snare arrangements even that can sort of fall apart.

 

[mixsit]

Hey let's do some more on this, and 'kick out of phase in the o/h's . Presumably what's primarily going on is Haas pan first -a six inch diff. (or less) in time path and you can be screwed -as far as centering.
But the kick's lower in freq, thus perhaps not heard with the phase tone effects up in those frequencies.
I tend to think the snare's more apt to end up be the more sensitive to both effects.

As far as 'phase tone of the o/h's + close mics.. Mostlly a million shades of different IMHO.

 

[Greg_L]

I personally don't even pay attention to the kick being centered in my overheads. I only focus on the snare and getting a good tom spread. In my set up, the snare is perfectly centered, but kick leans ever so slightly to the right in the overheads, but I don't give a shit because the kick mic is doing most of the work. The rest is a 50/50 or 60/40 blend, depending on the song.

 

[cavedog101]

If you arent HPF'ng your OH's, then this phase thing with the kik can become a problem and much as has been described. I look at the overheads as my image of the kit in stereo but have the tones and the impacts in the close mics. The ROOM MIC, however, is an animal of a different sort and here is where you get your kit size and depth and where the phase coherence is an important factor.

So. HPF the overheads if you are close micing the drums. This also tends to lift the cymbals out of the melee thats going on under them, gives a better stereo image of the kit and reduces the chances of the phase between the kik and the overheads of becoming a factor.

 

[Mo Facta]

You're talking in extremes. Not worrying about the kik in the overheads, and using the overheads only for cymbals is worlds apart. Realistically,most of the time, you're going to close mic the kik drum and get 90% of your kik sound from it, if not 99%.Yes, I'm well aware of the roll of overheads.

Extremes? I prefer attention to detail. As far as "not worrying about the kick in the overheads" goes, I do worry about it and found it to be the number one reason why the close kick mic will be offset and why the mono image will lack effectiveness and punch.

And dude, this isn't a pissing contest. I just didn't agree with what you were saying. Is this, or is this not a forum for healthy debate about audio? It is? Ok, good.

Another thing is I don't get your talk in percentages. In fact, I think it completely proves the fact that you ARE thinking in parts. Is 90% a part of 100%? Yes, it is. How am I supposed to relate that to a drum recording?

I disagree. I look at it as being realistic about how you're going to end up mixing the song. I'm not going to spend time worrying about something that I know won't matter when I mix. Keep in mind, I'm speaking for myself and what works/doesn't work for me. I'm sure there are many styles of music and approaches to recording that will require spending time on things that I don't fing important for myself.

Maybe you should start spending time on these things. Discounting things without investigation is almost always a path toward mediocrity. For me, in audio everything matters. Attention to detail is the difference between a sausage factory and excellence.

Yup. we covered that one already.

Well then take what I said as stressing the point.

I get very little kik in my overheads compared to how much the kik mic gives me. I don't have the problems you're talking about. If my kik (and/or snare) mic are out of phase with my overheads, I flip the polarity. I make sure the snare is in phase in the overheads themselves but don't worry about the kik. I've never heard my bass drum sound weird in any way because of it. If I was doing a style of music where I didn't mic the bass drum, then I would have no choice but to pay attention to the phas of the kik in the overheads.

Flipping polarity only fixes part of the problem. It doesn't remedy the phase issues and is usually a lesser of two evils. That is why mic placement is the best time to get your phase issues in order, IMO. Do me a favor and solo your overheads and check the L-R relationship of the kick at the master bus. If you're getting the same peak level on both, then everything is fine. If one side is lower than the other, then everything is not. You'll never get that kick to lay dead center until you get it's position in the overheads right. It is actually irrelevant how little the kick is coming through the overheads because you'll never eliminate it and it will always affect the mono close kick mic when summed together if that little bit is offset.

Not worrying about or forgetting something is there doesn't make it go away.

Cheers

 

[Mo Facta]

If you arent HPF'ng your OH's, then this phase thing with the kik can become a problem and much as has been described. I look at the overheads as my image of the kit in stereo but have the tones and the impacts in the close mics. The ROOM MIC, however, is an animal of a different sort and here is where you get your kit size and depth and where the phase coherence is an important factor.

So. HPF the overheads if you are close micing the drums. This also tends to lift the cymbals out of the melee thats going on under them, gives a better stereo image of the kit and reduces the chances of the phase between the kik and the overheads of becoming a factor.

I'm sorry but I don't HPF as a matter of course either. I prefer to listen to what my ears are telling me first and then I make decisions.

Cheers

 

[RAMI]

Extremes? I prefer attention to detail. As far as "not worrying about the kick in the overheads" goes, I do worry about it and found it to be the number one reason why the close kick mic will be offset and why the mono image will lack effectiveness and punch.

Well, I check my mixes in mono and never have the problems you're talking about. You are talking in extremes. Saying "I mic the kik because I don't see the overheads as just cymbal mics" is talking in extremes. It's not only one or the other. Do you not work with toms, hi-hats, a snare, etc....? Or are you just trying to "win" an argument which I didn't even think this really was.

And dude, this isn't a pissing contest. I just didn't agree with what you were saying. Is this, or is this not a forum for healthy debate about audio? It is? Ok, good.

Sounds like you're the only one getting all uptight and trying to preach to someone who said they agree with a lot of what you're saying. You need to calm down and not get so defensive. I made it clear that everything I was saying applied to ME and works for ME. But hey, knock yourself out, it's your heart attack, not mine.

Another thing is I don't get your talk in percentages. In fact, I think it completely proves the fact that you ARE thinking in parts. Is 90% a part of 100%? Yes, it is. How am I supposed to relate that to a drum recording?

OK, now you're just being petty, trying to find anything you can hang your hat on. I do think overheads should capture most of your kit...like about 98%...or maybe 95%...or about 93%....OK?

Flipping polarity only fixes part of the problem. It doesn't remedy the phase issues and is usually a lesser of two evils. That is why mic placement is the best time to get your phase issues in order, IMO. Do me a favor and solo your overheads and check the L-R relationship of the kick at the master bus. If you're getting the same peak level on both, then everything is fine. If one side is lower than the other, then everything is not. You'll never get that kick to lay dead center until you get it's position in the overheads right. It is actually irrelevant how little the kick is coming through the overheads because you'll never eliminate it and it will always affect the mono close kick mic when summed together if that little bit is offset.

All that works fine on paper, but doesn't always apply in real life. If my kik mic is out of phase with my overheads, then flipping the polarity works fine. I usually have to do it with my snare and sometimes on the kik. So does lining up your tracks in your DAW for those who prefer doing it that way.But I have never had a problem with the kik being out of phase in the 2 overheads. I don't mean it's never out of phase, I mean it's never caused a problem when mixing the style of music I play and mix. Please feel free to go listen to a drum track of mine and tell me which way the kik is leaning. There's a difference between "ignoring" a problem and actually "having" a problem. Nobody's ignoring anything. If there is a problem, I address it.

Like I said, I used to take the time to center the kik in the overheads with Glyn Johns, but found that it doesn't make a difference when I mix. Again, I'm talking about what works for me. I'm not telling you to change your approach to anything.