Classical Piano

[TuridduTenor]

The fiancee is a concert pianist. After a hiatus from the recording studio of several years is deciding to get back to putting some tracks down. Falls to me to do the recording.

Seeking feedback on a very first attempt of recording her playing. (eg. These are her practicing, not a finished product on her part). I've read that recording piano is the hardest thing there is and I'm beginning to agree. :-(

Using these omni's, placed mics rather close in on the Steinway D. The room is EXTREMELY live. On my second attempt I'll probably pull the mics back a bit.

dpa 4060's > marantz pmd671 (Oade Concert Mod of onboard preamps) @ 24bit/48khz. (Apologies for lossy, but I haven't met my quota of 10posts to be able to use url's to wavs in dropbox).

Recordings
View attachment Soler D flat.mp3 2mb
View attachment Soler G minor.mp3 3mb

Mic Placement



(The picture is a bit of a quick ghetto set up. Dpa's placed on small mic stands found in the hall, lying on top of loose, unused xlr cords, and looks a bit misleading. The mics are actually attached to old sports headphone ear mounts, to be able to discreetly record as a concert member; quasi croakie mount hanging on your ears.)

My questions are these:
1. How does the mic placement sound to you?
2. As it's untouched audio, where do I go from here in mixing?
3. Will I be better served using cardiods in the future? Recommendations under a thousand bucks. (At some point, I will be seeking to record us both, as I'm an operatic tenor, and need to expand equipment judisciously.)
4. How much difference might I hear if I used the dpa mma 6000 preamp for these mics? Or is there a better solution as I expand? (I'm recently enamored with the Apogee quartet possibilities going into an ipad, which would allow me to also record us as a piano and voice.)

 

[John Willett]

I can't listen as I'm roaming with limited data allowance.

But I record piano a lot and my starting position is to have the mics about 20cm apart at about ear height and about 2m from the piano in roughly the direction you pictured.

Then adjust to suit the music and the room.

Sorry I can't listen as I do not have the monitoring equipment with me and I'm short on data (my laptop is tethered to an iPhone and I'm Roaming abroad).

 

[DM60]

Just looking at the pics, I would think using a few Boom stands would help you a lot. Then you can better position your mics to the sound that you are looking for.

And as you've stated, the further away the mics are from the source, the more the room will interact with the recording. So, you might want to try and get the mics in closer to lessen the room influence, then work out to add it back in as desired (like dialing in reverb). Otherwise, if you don't get it right at the source, you will be fighting the room as well on the mix.

 

[TuridduTenor]

have the mics about 20cm apart at about ear height and about 2m from the piano in roughly the direction you pictured.

20 cm = 7.87in
OK! Thanks for this tip. I would have thought that being that close in I would have wanted a bit more seperation, but as I listen back to the tape, I also sense there is too much space between channels (albeit, I'm listening back with Sennheiser HD 380 monitor headphones. Since I travel for a living, can't yet travel with decent monitors). In comparing to other piano recordings there DID seem to be too much separation in my mix, which surprised me. I'll pull back a meter then bring mics closer together. They were about 80-90cm apart, I'd say.

Thanks for your input, John. I look forward to more when you get a chance to listen critically.

 

[TuridduTenor]

Just looking at the pics, I would think using a few Boom stands would help you a lot. Then you can better position your mics to the sound that you are looking for.

And as you've stated, the further away the mics are from the source, the more the room will interact with the recording. So, you might want to try and get the mics in closer to lessen the room influence, then work out to add it back in as desired (like dialing in reverb). Otherwise, if you don't get it right at the source, you will be fighting the room as well on the mix.

The theater I'm currently singing in (singing the role of Parsifal in Bologna, Italy at the moment) has booms that I can easily use, David. I'll definitely get them set up for next time. For these dpa's, will I notice a difference if I invest in shock mounts for them? Even on the DPA site, I can't quite figure out how they would be mounted on a stand. I've seen their small stands that mount inside the piano, but for classical, don't think that's advantageous.

On a boom, with these 4060's, need I worry about axis of the mic that much? Or just basically point them directly at the source?

As I said, it was my first time rec'ing in this particular room. I'm gonna back it up a bit and see what happens. I may even set up a Sony dm50 back in the hall to record ambient, then mix some of that in. Or...is that a ridiculous idea? (Neither recorder has word clock, but I think within a 3 min piece feel i can keep them in sync. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Anyone have thoughts on the preamp stage? More then anything I would like help in determining if the quality is acceptable for our needs at present. (We are beginning to work with a producer to choreograph the pieces with dancers and do some music video work, a la Anderson and Roe seen on YouTube). Certainly not professional quality, but I'd like to maximize what I have and expand toward as high of quality as I can get, investing a couple thousand in the coming year.

Thanks again, David.

 

[DM60]

The theater I'm currently singing in (singing the role of Parsifal in Bologna, Italy at the moment) has booms that I can easily use, David. I'll definitely get them set up for next time. For these dpa's, will I notice a difference if I invest in shock mounts for them? Even on the DPA site, I can't quite figure out how they would be mounted on a stand. I've seen their small stands that mount inside the piano, but for classical, don't think that's advantageous.

On a boom, with these 4060's, need I worry about axis of the mic that much? Or just basically point them directly at the source?

As I said, it was my first time rec'ing in this particular room. I'm gonna back it up a bit and see what happens. I may even set up a Sony dm50 back in the hall to record ambient, then mix some of that in. Or...is that a ridiculous idea? (Neither recorder has word clock, but I think within a 3 min piece feel i can keep them in sync. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Anyone have thoughts on the preamp stage? More then anything I would like help in determining if the quality is acceptable for our needs at present. (We are beginning to work with a producer to choreograph the pieces with dancers and do some music video work, a la Anderson and Roe seen on YouTube). Certainly not professional quality, but I'd like to maximize what I have and expand toward as high of quality as I can get, investing a couple thousand in the coming year.

Thanks again, David.

I'll let others comment on mic types, but it seems the mics you have is a good starting point. I think room mics are a very good idea as it allows you to adjust the room as you like. You can mic closer to the source, use room mics to capture the room, give you a lot more mixing possibilities.

 

[John Willett]

20 cm = 7.87in
OK! Thanks for this tip. I would have thought that being that close in I would have wanted a bit more seperation, but as I listen back to the tape, I also sense there is too much space between channels (albeit, I'm listening back with Sennheiser HD 380 monitor headphones. Since I travel for a living, can't yet travel with decent monitors). In comparing to other piano recordings there DID seem to be too much separation in my mix, which surprised me. I'll pull back a meter then bring mics closer together. They were about 80-90cm apart, I'd say.

Thanks for your input, John. I look forward to more when you get a chance to listen critically.

This was my set-up for a recording in The Menuhin Hall a few years back:-



And this was the set-up in the Green Room:-



Although I still have the mics all the recorders and monitors have been upgraded since this photo was taken.

As it was an important recording I had two totally separate recording chains - one with the Neumann digital mics and the other with the MKH 20 pair - the CD release was done with the digital mics (4 CDs in all).

 

[DM60]

This was my set-up for a recording in The Menuhin Hall a few years back:-

View attachment 84494

And this was the set-up in the Green Room:-

View attachment 84495

Although I still have the mics all the recorders and monitors have been upgraded since this photo was taken.

As it was an important recording I had two totally separate recording chains - one with the Neumann digital mics and the other with the MKH 20 pair - the CD release was done with the digital mics (4 CDs in all).

John, was that your mic placement in the top pic or just your mic rig?

 

[Bobbsy]

One thing I'm not clear on is when you say the room is very live, do you mean in a nice way or in an ugly, untreated room sort of way?

If the room is adding something to the recording, I pretty much concur with John Willett's advice. However, if the room is less than good you may wish to consider going to one of the many techniques where the mics are much closer to the strings, tucked in under the lid. There about as many ways of doing this as there are sound engineers in the world so a bit of Googling would give you some good starting points to play with.

The other thing to experiment with (there are no hard and fast rules) is seeing if you prefer full stick or half stick on the lid--depending on the piano either can be better and it makes quite a difference.

 

[TuridduTenor]

John, would love to hear a sample of that recording. I can tell that hall would sound lovely. This one at Teatro Comunale is a marble bathroom. Ok, maybe not a bathroom, but it is the theater's "recital" venue, actually just the foyer to the theater, seats about 200. Marble = not happy pianist.

(I'd actually gone on your site and found these pics already. Gave me good food for thought.)

 

[TuridduTenor]

See above. Marble. From "stem to stern." So, singers love singing in it. Instrumentalists hate it. And this pianist hates it, but loves the Steinway D so much found therein, she's willing to overlook it.

The problem with mic'ing that close is the performer (my fiancee) hates the mics that close in. She's done a fair amount of recording professionally and I can't move them in any closer. If anything I need to move them out. I'll do some more soon and then post the difference.

(the good thing about adding comments is, I think I'm getting close to 10 posts, so maybe I can use links to sound clips soon!)

 

[John Willett]

John, was that your mic placement in the top pic or just your mic rig?

That's how it was rigged.

About 20cm apart at about ear height and about 2m from the piano.

The main pair was the Neumann KM-D + KK183-D and the back-up was the Sennheiser MKH 20.

I took the photo as I finished rigging, just before we started recording the first session.

We had 15 days recording in the Menuhin Hall and 10 days editing and mastering. Total 25 days to produce 4 CDs.

 

[John Willett]

John, would love to hear a sample of that recording. I can tell that hall would sound lovely. This one at Teatro Comunale is a marble bathroom. Ok, maybe not a bathroom, but it is the theater's "recital" venue, actually just the foyer to the theater, seats about 200. Marble = not happy pianist.

(I'd actually gone on your site and found these pics already. Gave me good food for thought.)

I recorded the first 5 CDs on this list, plus the 8th (Chopin Nocturnes) and 10th (Personal Reflections - Chelsea).

The ones with the mic. set-up in the picture are for CDs 2, 3, 4 & 5.

The Menuhin Hall has a very nice acoustic for piano. The piano was a Blüthner, though I have also recorded a Steinway D many times.

Send me a PM with your snail-mail address and I'll send you a CD, I don't have the recordings on-line.