Cabinet/Speaker size

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
As I'm browsing Sweetwater's quarterly catalog, I notice the description of a 4x12 Marshall cabinet: "if 4x12 is overkill for the studio, try out the xxx 2x12 version". Hmm. I was under the impression that 4x12's hold no advantage over 2x12 other than 2 extra speakers. Is the writer referring to the size of the unit, or is there some other difference that makes the 4x12 sound different than a 2x12 in the studio? I'm even assuming the same amount of speakers are being mic'd. 2 of them.

Would 2 of the same speakers from a 4x12 sound the same (same mic, positioning, etc) as the same speakers within a 2x12 enclosure? Studio-wise, not live performance. I can say that mic'ing 2 speakers from a 4x12 in Amplitube sounds "bigger/rounder" than mic'ing 2 speakers within a 2x12 in the same program.
 
They may simply mean in terms of size but, whether noticeable or not, there will always be a difference between 1x12, 2x12, 4x12 or any other combination.

Even if you're only putting a mic up to one driver, the fact that cabinet size/volume is different between 1/2/4x12 is going to alter how that driver performs.
Also the fact that there are other drivers pushing with/against in a 2 or 4 x 12 will play a part too.

Will you, or I, notice it? I don't know.
Between a 1x12 and a 4x12, I suspect so.
 
Makes sense. I wonder if IKM is recreating those differences then, because I can hear it quite obviously with the cabinets they provide, and that's between 2x12 and 4x12, 2 mic'd speakers each.
 
andrushkiwt said:
Makes sense. I wonder if IKM is recreating those differences then, because I can hear it quite obviously with the cabinets they provide, and that's between 2x12 and 4x12, 2 mic'd speakers each.
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Oh, I misread that in your OP.
It makes sense that they'd emulate that difference.

I remember asking for advice with regard to building some enclosures for old hifi drivers than I have.
A bunch of people pretty much said 'don't bother unless you have original design specs or want shit speakers'. :p
 
There is NO science behind guitar speakers! Well, not in terms of consistency of tone.

Yes, a V30 will always be LOUD and have that biting mid range and Greenback will always be smoother but just for the craic I once put all 4 drivers in a 4X12 on a 4 way rotary and flipped white noise through them. Each V30 sounded slightly different from its mate.

But, size matters! Well in the sense that a speaker starts to 'beam' at a frequency that is determined by its diameter. Up to about 1kHz a 12"* is pretty omni' then the radiation starts to get ever narrower. A 2 x 12 (stacked) will start 'beaming' about an octave lower in the vertical plane. A 4x12 will beam at the same frequency as two but in both planes. This means different combinations of speakers WILL sound different unless you are dead on axis (and you can only BE that for one!)

The 4x12 grew out of the need to handle the ever more powerful amps demanded by bands like The Who. Nothing terribly clever about them!

*This is why the 12 incher is THE favourite for guitar. There are a few decent sounding tens, VERY few decent 8s but this is more to do, IMHO with the size and radiation pattern V frequency than anything special about cone materials, magnets or such which.

Now! Mack said in another post "...Waiting for all the ***t in heaven to fall on me!" (well, sort of!) . I have donned me Tommy helmet.

Dave.
 
You can also go for a slant 212 with offset speakers. I picked one up from Sourmash, and it's a great option to the typical horizontal or vertical 212 designs, without the heft of a full-tilt 412...though their slant 212 is almost the same size as a typical 412, but you don't have the extra speaker weight (which is only a concern if you're moving the thing around a lot).
 
Good info, thanks guys. If Amplitube is recreating those differences, then maybe I'll try the 2x12's as the main rhythm cabs. I thought the 4's sounded more fuller, even though I was only mic'ing the 2 speakers anyway, but maybe they're actually hindering my electric recordings. I'm on acoustic tear right now anyway, so this is info the future, when I get back to amp sims. thnx
 
The Avatar Vintage 212 cab is also a good option if you want a big-cab sound.
It's set up as a horizontal 212...but it's an oversized 212 cab and very full/big sounding.
 
I understand why guitar players like the sound of a 4 x 12 cab, or even 2 off 4 x 12 cab's, its due to the amount of air the cones move. But in reality these cabs are really for concert size venues and stages. A good 2 x 12 cab is a good compromise for smaller venues due to a 4 x 12 cab needing to be pushed hard to get a good speaker response, the guitar player in my band brings a single 12 combo for the smaller venues so he can crank it up. I also hate it in the studio when a guitar player brings in a 4 x 12 cab, or even 2 of them. A much better overdrive sound (at lower volume) is produced by a singe 12 or a 2x 12 cab.

Alan.
 
Different size cabs resonate differently changing which frequencies get emphasized/de-emphasized. Its not as noticeable a difference when you put a 57 against the grille cloth but I think the difference is obvious if you mic from farther away , say 3- 4 feet. The old HiWatt cabs were my favorites, to me they would "sing" no matter what drivers you shoved in 'em, especially driven by a JCM, Plexi or Dual rectifier. The used ones I've seen were priced like gold, so for me it's just fond memory
 
witzendoz said:
I also hate it in the studio when a guitar player brings in a 4 x 12 cab, or even 2 of them. A much better overdrive sound (at lower volume) is produced by a singe 12 or a 2x 12 cab.
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This is what I'm looking for too, thanks Alan. I'll try some 2x12's next time I set up with the sim. Still working on acoustic stuff at the moment. thnx
 
Most cab sims are really just a filter. Maybe a fairly complex, resonant filter, but not actually much different from a simple EQ curve. They normally do not include any of the dynamic response - compression/distortion - that you might get from a real world speaker. So, like, if the point is to "push the cones harder" it ain't gonna happen.

But there's a whole lot more difference between most of these cabs than just the number of drivers. Like, if that 2x12 cab is emulating an open-back Fender Twin, it is not going to be anything like a closed-back Marshall 4x12. It's just a completely different thing.

When choosing cabs in a simulation, unless you're really looking for a specific amp's sound (in which case you should choose the cabinet which most closely matches that amp), you should really just swap them out until you find the one that sounds closest to what you want. Then maybe try the different mic/distance/placement parameters that the plugin gives you, and then if that doesn't work either swap for a different one or start adding EQ after.

Possibly the best part of an amp simulator is that you can mix and match amps with cabs and not ever have to worry about impedance or wattage or anything. Want to run a 300W bass amp through a single 8" speaker? In meatspace that would likely destroy one if not both. In sim, it just sounds thin and nasal the way you'd probably expect. Unless you expect it to distort all to hell the way it might IRL (before it explodes), in which case you'll be sorely disappointed.
 
+1. I've heard it said that most effects are either volume, frequency or time based. Filters, gain modifiers, delays and combinations of the three. Lot of plugins out there are combining them in weird and wonderful ways
 
Guitargodgt said:
In my experience cabs, even going from 4X12 to 4X12 have a huge influence on the sound.
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Pretty sure you meant 2x12 to 4x12.

Yes, the size of cabinet can make a huge difference. Good or not for the recording is up to the user and the amp driving it. And the room it is recorded in...There is no right way ever.

It is odd to me that some wish to find the perfect 'tone' from a specific piece of gear or it's correlation with a speaker cab. Worse is when someone wants to duplicate a sound they heard.

When it comes down to the basics, it is about finding the tone that works for yourself. And the 'elephant' that is playing through the rig in the room...

It is about the tone that works for the player and the recording.

Shitty as it sounds, IMO there is no perfect guitar tone. The player makes it happen.

That sounded vague as shit huh? ....
 
I hate to speak for anybody else, but I don't think Guitargodgt actually mistyped. There can be a real difference between different cabs with the same basic configuration. Different resonances, different speakers, different sound.

The OP is still about cab simulation, though...
 
ashcat_lt said:
I hate to speak for anybody else, but I don't think Guitargodgt actually mistyped. There can be a real difference between different cabs with the same basic configuration. Different resonances, different speakers, different sound.

The OP is still about cab simulation, though...
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Yes, I doubt any two cabs of even nominally identical construction sound the same* A speaker 'box' has one basic 'honk' the frequency of which is determined by the enclosed air volume and the dimensions of any 'holes' aka speaker openings. However, the cones themselves will act as mass/compliant modifiers and it is well know that guitar speaker cones are VERY variable!

*"They" have enough trouble pairing up speaker sets for decent monitors, I doubt they give a QC ***t about gitists!

"Such Fun"!!

Dave.
 
jimmys69 said:
Pretty sure you meant 2x12 to 4x12.
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Nope, I meant 4X12 to 4X12 (aka brand, shape, size, construction etc...). :thumbs up:

I can say with pretty strong confidence that if you compared a Mesa Rect standard straight 4x12 to say an Orange PPC412-C you would hear a pretty large difference.

I would say the difference would magnify if you changed to slanted cab vs straight cab.

I would say it would magnify even more if you changed it to a 2X12 vs 4X12.
 
Guitargodgt said:
Nope, I meant 4X12 to 4X12 (aka brand, shape, size, construction etc...). :thumbs up:

I can say with pretty strong confidence that if you compared a Mesa Rect standard straight 4x12 to say an Orange PPC412-C you would hear a pretty large difference.

I would say the difference would magnify if you changed to slanted cab vs straight cab.

I would say it would magnify even more if you changed it to a 2X12 vs 4X12.
Click to expand...

"I refer the Hon' Gent' to the reply I gave some time ago."

Dave.
 
Check this cab shootout. It's a Mesa 1x12, 2x12, and 4x12 out of a Boogie V:25, same amp as mine. The 2x12 sounds sweetest to me.

 
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