API 512 preamp vs current technology

toneranger

New member
Hi All,

I read that Eric Johnson used API 512 preamps in his early days. I consider the tone he got on "Ah Via Musicom", Cliffs of Dover for example as possibly the greatest overdriven guitar sound ever recorded.... so that piqued my interest in the API 512.

But technology has come a long way since then. Has anyone A/Bed the API 512 with newer interfaces by Komplete, Motus, Presonus etc and reached a conclusion as to whether the more expensive preamps are really worth it?

Thanks,
TR
 
So much of this is subjective so I doubt you'll get 'the answer'.
Particularly with guitar tones. Is it the amp, the room, the guitarist, the plectrum, the engineer, the recording chain, the medium? All of the above? Maybe it was the humidity that day? ;)

Sticking to preamps, though, with a lot of these old renowned preamps one of the main things you're getting over modern AI preamps is transformer I/O.
I'm sure that's not always the case - There are desirable solid state and germanium compressors and preamps, no doubt, but I'm pretty sure transformer in and out is a desirable quality, to some, that sets your 512s and the likes apart from a lot of modern AI preamps.

The preamps that I use regularly are old console modules. Some have transformer in only, others have transformer in and out.
I'm not going to bullshit and tell you "oh yeah, you can really hear the magic iron there" but I know I like them and come back to them.

Not sure how useful any of that is. :)
 
So much of this is subjective so I doubt you'll get 'the answer'.
Particularly with guitar tones. Is it the amp, the room, the guitarist, the plectrum, the engineer, the recording chain, the medium? All of the above? Maybe it was the humidity that day? ;)

Sticking to preamps, though, with a lot of these old renowned preamps one of the main things you're getting over modern AI preamps is transformer I/O.
I'm sure that's not always the case - There are desirable solid state and germanium compressors and preamps, no doubt, but I'm pretty sure transformer in and out is a desirable quality, to some, that sets your 512s and the likes apart from a lot of modern AI preamps.

The preamps that I use regularly are old console modules. Some have transformer in only, others have transformer in and out.
I'm not going to bullshit and tell you "oh yeah, you can really hear the magic iron there" but I know I like them and come back to them.

Not sure how useful any of that is. :)

It is useful Steena, thanks for your input.

I actually am inclined to think you're right, re the "magic"; I listened (with headphones on) to this shootout between an API 512C and an Apogee Duet pre and definitely noticed a difference: the API provided more of a "3D" effect, more presence/warmth? The Apogee sounded "tinny" in spots. It's the same thing with folks who use amp simulators into their DAWs, just doesn't work, sounds thin.

Check it out:

YouTube

Sort of confirms my hunch that good ole' Eric Johnson (legendary ears) is right again in choosing the vintage type preamps.

On another note, have you found that your old consoles help reduce unwanted "shhhh" mic noise?
 
On another note, have you found that your old consoles help reduce unwanted "shhhh" mic noise?

Do you mean sibilance?
I might not be the best person to ask about that. I've used dynamic mics almost exclusively for vocal for quite some time, and some of my condensers are considered natural sounding, or dark, depending how you look at it.

Maybe you're talking about background hiss?
If so, yes...Some of the preamps I have are ridiculously quiet.
Full gain is not a problem apart from the signal being way too loud! :p
 
I think its up in the air, theres great stuff from the hardware obviously and the pro's arent throwing it away though a few have gone more and more itb.

Not sure of the recording notes for Cliffs of Dover? who engineered it? what room, what mics? what console? mastering?
His guitar gear is discussed for it but not much on the mic placements etc..

Love! Cliffs of Dover! beautiful recording that never ages, imo.
 
Not sure how interesting or relevant it is, but I've fought to get a decent DI sound out of my bass for a long time.
Tried a few DI boxes, various preamps..Fancy ones, transformer I/O ones, modern AI ones.
Even replaced the stock pickups with EMGs - Tried instrument inputs, line inputs, amp modellers; Any and all tricks I could think of.

It always lacks definition and sounds flabby so I figured the bass just sucks, despite reviews to the contrary.
I recently switched out my main interface to a smaller Presonus for other reasons and was DIing a bass and realised it sounded really good.
OK...Not lovely expensive rich fender good, but a LOT better. Enough that I retracked 4 songs from a current project.

I can explain it but the stock presonus preamp (instrument input) is now my go-to for bass DI. :facepalm:
I don't know the circuit well or anything but I doubt there's more than a few dollars in the path.

Thought I'd throw that out there.
 
i was reading someone ran through a bunch of stuff and preferred their Korg unit, amongst higher end stuff.
id posted it before but one bass player did a shootout of his LA610 and preferred his DOD R825. funny in hindsight a lot of beginners would get a good sound in their bedroom then go to the garage and it would sound like ass and not understand why really. i recall all that crap, the learning curve....so all the hard work and settings didnt mean squat once the room changed..ouch.
 
I think its up in the air, theres great stuff from the hardware obviously and the pro's arent throwing it away though a few have gone more and more itb.

Not sure of the recording notes for Cliffs of Dover? who engineered it? what room, what mics? what console? mastering?
His guitar gear is discussed for it but not much on the mic placements etc..

Love! Cliffs of Dover! beautiful recording that never ages, imo.

Agree, it indeed never ages, such a timeless thing of beauty!

Eric used a Neve console I think, as well as API pres, sm 57 and AKGs if I'm not mistaken. He spent days and days before the recording moving things around to get the best possible sound. I personally think the magic in his sound is as much if not more the preamp and the console than his effects/amps.
 
Do you mean sibilance?
I might not be the best person to ask about that. I've used dynamic mics almost exclusively for vocal for quite some time, and some of my condensers are considered natural sounding, or dark, depending how you look at it.

Maybe you're talking about background hiss?
If so, yes...Some of the preamps I have are ridiculously quiet.
Full gain is not a problem apart from the signal being way too loud! :p

Not sure what happened to my earlier reply to you, it vanished.

Anyhow, was just saying, yes it's just background hiss from when I turn up the gain (and I have to turn up the gain to get a decent signal, arghhhh). That's what I get for plugging into low-end equipment, lol.

Anyhoo, so you know what? This space is just overwhelming for a neophyte. Last night I was looking up the Meris 440 pre (like an API apparently) and had no idea what kind of box should sit between it and my DAW/PC....

And what on earth is a "lunch box"? as it relates to preamps?

Thank goodness for this forum and folks like you Marooned Man, I'd be eternally stuck on moron forever otherwise!
 
Glad to help, where I can. :)

Noise at higher gain is common enough on lower end gear.
I'm not sure if that's a reflection of the quality of the equipment, or of the fact that many of these preamps have lower gain that some of the prized models.

Most often when we get threads about background hiss it's from people pairing quiet sources and/or dynamic microphones with preamps boasting 50db gain or less.

Something like the GAP Pre73 is claiming 80db, to give one comparison.
I don't have measurements for the preamps I guess they're pretty high gain because I never get above two o'clock ish, even with quiet sources and an sm7b, for example.
 
"Something like the GAP Pre73 is claiming 80db, to give one comparison"

you mean they are claiming no background noise up to 80db gain?
 
Surprise surprise, just saw two interviews of Joe Satriani and Steve Vai, and they both use APIs in their home studios.

3 strikes and you're in.

I'm going for an API-like mic pre.

Take a look at this pic of Vai's mic pre rack: He's got this configuration:

57 L 421 L 57 R 421 R

Does that mean he's using a total of 4 mics on one cabinet ? !


YouTube
 

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"Something like the GAP Pre73 is claiming 80db, to give one comparison"

you mean they are claiming no background noise up to 80db gain?

No, the claim is amount of amplification.
In my limited experience, higher gain preamplifiers have been quieter.
As I say, I don't know if that because they're designed better, different types of preamp, or just higher quality components.

That said, if your input source is also the source of the hiss then the amplifier isn't going to matter too much! ;)

Not sure about Vai's setup.
57+421 is a common pairing so, if I had to guess, I'd guess he's either micing two amplifiers or two drivers, each with a 57+421.
Would have a stereo setup with delays and stuff?
 
OK, so I guess the main question for me now is:

Do any of the recently released mic pres designed for the home studio approach the quality/sound of an API 512? I'm a big believer in technology gains over time, so who knows, maybe there's a mic pre out there that's in the $200-300 range that's affordable and gets 70-80% of the API feel?

Hoping this rabbit trail doesn't take me forever to go down.
 
"The preamps that I use regularly are old console modules. Some have transformer in only, others have transformer in and out"

Steena, earlier you said the above. So is your signal chain when you use your old console modules something like this:

Bass Amp Mic Mic Pre Compressor Converter DAW ?

What are some of the more common converters out there? Apogee?
 
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