Amp simulator vs tube amps for home studio.

Glover902

New member
Hello,

I recently have purchased my own house and am now out of my parents bedroom where I had my studio squeezed in with my bed wardrobe etc haha and have my own room just for my studio to work with. I have previously been using an Axe FX to record guitar with but have never been happy with it. It always sounded too thin and weak while being very frustrating to deal in and pick up where I left off. Trying to get clean and dirty sounds in the same recording never seemed to sit right either. I imagine most of these problems are caused by me not being able to use it to it's potential but I've just never got on with it.

Now I've moved in I've taken down all my heads and pedals from the loft and moved them into the new room and my original plan was to sell them so I plugged them to test they work. I have a Blackstar 100 series one, a Peavey 5150 and a Mesa Boogie express combo amp plus lots of pedals. Using them again was fantastic and I loved my tone again, I haven't been able to put the guitar down since.

So now I'm thinking of getting rid of the Axe Fx and using the amps and pedals to record instead and wanted to ask some questions around that... Firstly do you think this is the right move or should I really put time in to learning the Axe Fx and I will end up more satisfied in the long run?

Secondly if I go this route should I buy a small cab and mic it up to record or use something like a Palmer pdi 03 into my audio interface and how will this sound recorded, is it likely to be better than the Axe fx?

I was also thinking of buying something like a TC Electronic G-Force or G-Major or another effects rack for ease of use for my effects if I don't have the Axe Fx anymore, anyone have any recommendations about which to buy? Id still use my pedals I have but would like something just ready to go with all effects. With the stuff I'm selling I can probably do up to £800 maybe more but obviously the less I spend the more I can invest elsewhere?

With the money I am also thinking of getting a bass for my recordings, what would be the best way to record bass, would I also need to get a bass amp and mic it up or would there be a better way that would take up less space haha.

I realise it's a lot of question and I'm sure I've missed some out.. I'm just very excited to get going, any help is appreciated!

Thanks,
Sam.
 
You've got some nice heads. Get a cab and mic them. If you haven't been doing this, there will be a learning curve. But the results will be worth it.
 
If it doesn't piss off your new neighbors, mic the cabinet.

As far as effects go, I would apply any effects that you can while you are mixing instead of at the guitar amp. This allows you to change your mind about the effect or how much effect you want on the part. It also allows you to have a stereo effect on the guitar part.

Obviously, overdrives, wah pedals, etc... will still need to be done at the amp, but reverbs, delays, stereo chorus's, etc... will be much cleaner when applied in the mix.
 
Thank you for the replies.

So it will sound better mic'd up over getting something like the Palmer pdi 03, even in a small room? I was worried about the neighbors but they've not complained yet haha. I would like to be able to record late on as well though so maybe worth looking into both avenues?

I currently have a Peavy 5150 4x12 cab which is ridiculously big for the room, if I sold it and got something smaller but better quality would that yield just as good results or do you need a bigger cab?

I didn't realise that about the effects, I will have to look into adding them post recording, it's a shame as I have some nice pedals. Why do big studios have racks and racks of effects if it's better to apply them during mixing?
 
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I didn't realise that about the effects, I will have to look into adding them post recording, it's a shame as I have some nice pedals. Why do big studios have racks and racks of effects if it's better to apply them during mixing?
Well, guitar players that can afford studio time often have a clear idea on the sound they want to hear when they're laying down their track, and that means using pedals going in. I wouldn't dispose of that board (or thought!), because you may find it works better for you, though you give up some flexibility in the mix stage. HOWEVER, tinkering with effects in the mix stage is rarely as rewarding as I think some of us fool ourselves into thinking - most listeners could care less...

I'd keep everything and try it out for a while. You probably need to consider getting some "bogos" at the least to help control the sound of the amps, and maybe even build an "iso-cab" so you can crank the amp while keeping the sound from having the neighbors/cops banging on the door at 02:00.

After some time you may find you don't need everything (4x12 cab comes to mind) to do good recording, but it's always nice to have an amp or two for when friends come over to jam, if nothing else.
 
So it will sound better mic'd up over getting something like the Palmer pdi 03, even in a small room?
If you're going to DI out of those amps and add cab simulation in any form, you might as well just use the amp sim you've got. The cab and microphone are at least half the tone.

I currently have a Peavy 5150 4x12 cab which is ridiculously big for the room...
Then your room's probably too small to take full advantage of micing about anything. Close micing can sometimes help take the room out of the recording, but there will probably be a whole lot of mess in the low end. Moving the cab itself around might find you a decent spot, but I promise it will be the least convenient place possible. ;)

And that's not even to mention that those things are going to be absurdly loud in a room that small. It will be pretty tough to be in the room with the amp long enough to dial in a decent tone.

Either way and anyway, you'll probably lot a lot of acoustic treatment. Maybe think about figuring that into your budget.

if I sold it and got something smaller but better quality would that yield just as good results or do you need a bigger cab?
A different cab will sound different. It's up to you whether that will be closer to or farther from where you want to be. The Axe FX should be able to give you some ideas of how different cabs might change things, but until you plug in a real speaker in the room, you'll never know for sure what it'll do.
Why do big studios have racks and racks of effects if it's better to apply them during mixing?
They use them during mixing. :)

It completely depends on what you're shooting for. There's a real difference between distorted chorus and chorused distortion. A delay before the amp is completely different from one added in the mix after. To me, post amp effects tend to sound like the 80s and cocaine, but some folks are into that kind of thing.
 
The one other option I have of course is getting rid of the Axe Fx and trying to find an amp sim that agrees with me, with what's been said above that might be a good bet right now. I'm sure there's one that would better suit me and I would like the sound of.

I'll upload a picture of the room when I get chance so you can see.

The Blackstar has a power knob where you can turn it down to 10W, the Mesa Boogie can also been turned down to 5W amp which is how I'm using that cab at the moment in there, I imagine that's probably not ideal for recording though.
 
I honestly find the 0.5W setting pretty useful on my Blues Cube, and occasionally the 5W. Nothing higher for home recording - even the 5W setting can only be tolerated in small doses, and that's with tracking phones on.

You've got plenty to actually do lots of quality recording if you take some time to see what can be done in your space. Have you laid down tracks with all of the stuff you have already to listen to? Do that [first] and post them here and ask questions would be my recommendation.
 
I've only used the Axe Fx to record, I've just moved out and all the other stuff was up the loft until very recently, they were all used in my gigging days. I don't currently have any way to record using the other stuff, no mics or a speaker simulator.

I was trying to get an idea of which one would be better to use with my set up before spending hundreds on one to find out it's no good for me after the fact.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

There is the room in question, obviously it's a bit of a mess at the moment while I sort everything out!
 
Wow, tiny room. You'll go deaf in there playing that stack. Seriously. You need to think about your hearing. I'd really work on learning to use the Axe or just focus on recording with some of the quality amp/pedal plugins available. Try one of the smaller amps in your collection and see how it goes. It's not possible to recommend an amp for that situation without knowing what you're able to do with what you have, and you being able to articulate what you're trying to achieve that you can't with what you have, at least IMO.

And, in any case, you need some serious treatment in that room before you drop a dime on another amp. Again, IMO. There's probably someone, somewhere, that will tell you to buy amp X, but it's not gonna be me...
 
...and am now out of my parents bedroom where I had my studio squeezed in with my bed wardrobe etc..

Did your parents get any sleep seeing how you were in their bedroom with all your stuff? :D

Even in a small room, a guitar amp/cab setup can be great...just mic it more closely, and add some acoustic absorption to tame the room sound.

AFA the bass...just go DI, which is how most people do it, though some prefer amps, but bass just works great DI.


If you're going to DI out of those amps and add cab simulation in any form, you might as well just use the amp sim you've got. The cab and microphone are at least half the tone.


Right...either do it up all the way, amp/cab and mic it...(which is my own preference)....or just use all sims.
Taking line outs from the amp and simulating a cab...it's almost not worth it...and you'll get about the same result just doing sims all the way.
 
Sell the 4x12, get a nice 1x12 cab. Or get two--one open back, the other closed. Get the speaker out of the room where you are tracking. Get a long speaker cable and a long mic cable, run them under the door to wherever your cabinet is located, and track at a comfortable level where you can actually hear what you are recording.
 
Yep, low-wattage setting on the amp, and a nice little 12" speaker cabinet. Close-mic (experiment) and buy/build some gobo-type bass traps that you can place around the mic set-up to cut down on reflections. Get the cabinet off the floor (use an amp stand).
As to pedals, I prefer getting the sound I want from the amp while tracking - except for reverb, which I usually add in mixing. I used sims for a long time because of the volume thing, but there is nothing like the aural feedback from the speaker hitting the guitar strings and body to make a guitar sing.
 
Unless there are restrictions on the amount of noise you can make, I'd personally experiment with the full power settings on the amp. I've got several amps with an internal power soak or wattage setting. They all sound best on full power. Once you get the speaker out of the room so that the volume is no longer a danger to your health and hearing, there's no reason not to run it full out--or at whatever setting gets you the tone you are looking for.
 
Unless there are restrictions on the amount of noise you can make

It's a terraced house so we're joined on to other houses so there's gonna be restrictions, I just don't know what they are yet haha. I kinda want to put it in the other room and crank the sound but I feel like there's no way I'm not gonna get complaints about the noise.

I might try to use the mesa combo first and see what I can do with that mic'd and if I can make something happen then I can get a smaller cab for the heads.

I'm also gonna really give the Axe Fx a go and maybe try a few other amp sims and see if I can make it work for me, it just doesn't have any sustain or sing let the amps do, like you can't get a good pinch harmonic out of it but maybe that's because of the settings and I need to invest more time.

The reason I originally suggested the Palmer PDI-03 was because this guy uses one and he I absolutely love his tone:

YouTube

It probably helps how good he is though...

Thank you for all the replies lots to consider for sure. You're making me wish my criteria for buying a house was 'good place to crank up and mic cabs > everything else.' Unfortunately the other half probably wouldn't have agreed!
 
I own an Axe FX II and a small handful of amps (JCM800, Peavey Windsor, and a Burgera 6260). I personally prefer the Axe FX. If you have the opportunity, plug the Axe FX into a cabinet and you'll get that lovely "amp in the room" sound. The amps on the Axe FX are pretty spot on, they only sound thin and weak because you're hearing these amps through an impulse which was meant to emulate the sound curve of a particular speaker in a particular cabinet going through a particular mic at a particular position in a particular room and is feeding into a particular interface. Impulses are extremely convenient, and can often sound great when used in a full mix, but on their own they lack the life that a real cabinet brings.

If you don't own a power amp for your Axe FX, you can plug it into the FX loop of your tube amp, just make sure you disable any cabinet impulses. Otherwise you'll get a "cab within a cab" kind of sound.
 
Okay so I'm trying to use Axe edit for my Axe Fx to really get stuck in with it, I've brought two midi cables and connected them to the Komplete audio 6 and into the Axe Fx but the midi light isn't coming on and doesn't appear to be working. Anyone got any idea what I might be doing wrong?
 
I'm not a guitarist so I know very little about how huge the difference would be on the actual recording of a amp perfectly mic'd vs a sim.

You've got to remember when playing through a blazing amp you are having a physical sound wave experience not just your ears your whole body is receiving the "vibes". Think of cranking your favorite rock song through an awesome sound system cranked vs through your headphones...same song, same audio signal totally different musical experience...I mean totally.

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Obviously the whole purpose is to get the best sound you can on your recording. I'd do a few side by side test and see if there really is a difference. Get the best tone through your sim you can and record it, do the same with your amp and then listen to them both side by side and see if it worth keeping the amps..

I'm a keyboard player who was indoctrinated into keys via a B3 and two 122 leslies UNFRICKINBELIEVABLE! what a magical musical experience...Flash forward some 40+ years.... lugging a B3 and leslie around aint no fun for a 60+ year old fart. But crazy as I am I did...I was a purist.... but what I discovered was that I could get just as good of recording with my nord and leslie sims as I could with the b3 and the leslie....saw the prices of B3's going down and said to myself...CYA Boat anchor! Sold..... I picked up a M3 for $100 for the studio that I have yet to use...fact of the matter is that Doppler effect that you feel when listening to a leslie live is 100% impossible to record and recreate when you play back...just physics.
 
Okay so I'm trying to use Axe edit for my Axe Fx to really get stuck in with it, I've brought two midi cables and connected them to the Komplete audio 6 and into the Axe Fx but the midi light isn't coming on and doesn't appear to be working. Anyone got any idea what I might be doing wrong?
The way I read the Axe Edit Getting Started Guide, it uses USB to communicate with the Axe Fx. Maybe a clearer explanation of what you're trying to do, exactly, would help?
 
Unfortunately the USB is only for the Axe Fx 2, I have the standard so I don't have that option so I have to use midi to midi to connect so I can use the axe edit software. I brought two midi to midi cables and plugged them in but it's not connecting. The midi lights aren't coming on for either the audio interface or the Axe Fx.
 
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