Achieving That Professional Vocal Sound:

M

MEvansMusic

New member
Hello everyone,

I'm still a little new to the forum so I'm hoping this question falls under the correct sub-forum here. But anyways what I'm looking for is more advice/guidance than anything else. I've already tackled my fair share of recording issues and self-producing issues that I've had in the past, but still have one final battle to tackle in terms of getting a great recording: the vocals. I've been practicing and really honing down my singing (thanks to some of you on this forum), so singing on key, etc, isn't my primary struggle anymore; but it's more so the producing side of it now that always leaves me puzzled and increasingly frustrated. I'm looking for that distinct "pop" vocal sound, and although it's not my primary vocal style I still really want to crack this. A couple of examples of the vocal I'm looking to achieve from musicians who probably have a semi-similar setup to mine (obviously more high-end equipment however):

Hobbie Stuart - Put A Movie On - YouTube

Charlie Puth - Collide (Howie Day Cover) - YouTube


Although I'm going for a very "professional" sound, I really don't want to drench my vocals in reverb, delays, etc, correct? Isn't less in production usually more? I'm going to be doing mostly acoustic/electronic covers of popular songs (much like what the artists above are known for) and want a little rawness to my production. I can clearly hear small instances of auto tune throughout most of the above tracks, but I'm not sure if that creates that "professional" vocal sound or not. I know there's a lot more involved in this quality vocal (acoustics in the room, singers voice, mic type, etc), but can't pinpoint exactly what it is that I need. I record my vocals with an Audio-Technica 2035 Condenser mic and a Zoom H4N (don't use prefaces when recording with the Zoom), and then transport the audio tracks into Pro Tools 11 via an SD card. Finally I got Melodyne Essential and am becoming a little more familiar with it..I hope that using subliminal autotune might get things "tighter". How possible is it, do you think, for me to achieve this vocal sound with my given equipment? Maybe I should just book studio time and record there...any input would be greatly appreciated. Apologies for the length of this post. Thanks guys,

Matt

cliffs:
-Looking for tight, raw vocal sound.
-Analyzing the vocal effects these "cover" (and professional) artists use to achieve their sound.
-Do not have big issues with going off-key (not the problem I'm stumped over)
-Recording setup: AT2035 Condenser Mic hooked up with Zoom H4N; transport clips via SD card into Pro Tools 11
-Given the equipment I have^^, is achieving this sound even possible? Should I book studio time instead?
 
Hi Matt! Could you upload us a sample of your own sound so we could take a listen and steer you to the right direction.

However some quick thoughts:
Why don't you use Zoom as audio interface and record directly to your computer?
What speakers/headphones are you using?
Is your room treated?
 
Well, despite what you say, the thing that jumps out at me is that both those vocals you like ARE drenched in reverb (especially the first one) and heavily compressed (especially the second one). There's certainly nothing "raw" about either sound--if anything they're TOO processed for my ear though, obviously, decisions like that are purely personal taste.
 
Hmm, you're definitely right about the reverb/compression: I guess what I was looking for was that "polished" sound (especially the first one). I think the second cover is way over done in the producing department as well and I don't necessarily want it, but I'm just curious how he achieved that sound.

Also Seidy, the only things (thing, rather) I have put online so far are live takes (https://soundcloud.com/matthewevansmusic000/something-i-need-onerepublic-1) so the quality isn't 100% what I can get. This soundcloud clip is live so it's not quite an accurate reflection of my sound, but close. I want to start uploading covers and such to YouTube, but not until my music/production quality is at its finest. The only things I'm struggling with now are producing the vocals. Also, I'm fairly certain that the Zoom H4N is not compatible with Pro Tools 11, I've been trying to figure it out for months, even made a couple threads about it to no avail. Otherwise I definitely would.
Unfortunately my room is not treated, it's a small space and I don't have too many resources (or the specific know how) to utilize treatment without either deadening the the sound or creating a sound I don't want.
 
I can't figure out if that first clip has just no real idea how to gracefully apply pitch correction or if he's using it as a deliberate effect... it's heavily compressed and reverbed.

Your soundcloud clip sounds like you're miles away from the microphone in a poor quality recording environment using a not particularly sympathetic recording chain.

You can sing, no doubt. I'd be getting closer, turning the gain down, and doing what I can to null reflections via, ideally, room treatment, but if not possible, finding a better/bigger room with lots of soft furnishings etc.

Tell us about where you're recording, how you're tracking, how far you are from the mic, etc...
 
Thanks guys. Armistice I'm glad you've pointed these things out because it's exactly the kind of feedback I need to hear. It's difficult to hear your own sound objectively unless you wait a good while before coming back to it or your ear is suited to the task. I'm not uber familiar with recording to begin with so I knew there were definitely a number of flaws. As for the first clip, I'm fairly certain that it's a deliberate effect. You can see it in any number of videos Hobbie Stuart has produced and I think it's just his production/vocal style; seems to be working for him.

Unfortunately my recordings take place in my bedroom, 19 year old college kid without a lot of paper to burn. The room is about 15x15sq ft, about 12ft high. The room is a little clustered with two windows, a desk, dressers, bed etc so the room definitely isn't the greatest. I use the Zoom H4N for tracking as it allows me to plug in a condenser mic and a guitar at the same and record both, usually simultaneously (being a solo musician I've struggled with tracking seperate but always get lost because the guitar is my guide) where I then transport the audio into Pro Tools 11. I typically use no pre-amp with this setup, the Zoom H4N preamps are a little cheap sounding, so I like to do as much editing as possible after I finish the vocals. As stated before, however, I've had issues using the Zoom H4N as a direct interface which I think would greatly increase the quality of my recordings. Typically my distance from the mic ranges anywhere from 6-8 inches depending on the loudness/ punch their is to the song.

Maybe as someone whose been producing/editing music for only about a year, I should try and record something at an actual studio to get a feel of how they engineer and to get a much better quality recording. If anything I can just record at the studio and bring it home into Pro Tools 11 for editing? Thoughts?
 
I hadn't heard your track when I posted above but, having listened on proper monitors now, can give a big +1 to Armistice's advice. Getting closer to the mic (and adding a pop screen to let you do this if you don't have one already) will make a huge difference.

For temporary acoustic treatment I'll give my usual advice. Go to you local DIY or plumbing supply shop and buy a bunch of cheap PVC pipe and corner fittings. Use these to make an "L" shaped frame then peg quilts or duvets to the frame. Leave the corner pieces unglued so you can take it apart and store it under your bed.

Put the quilt covered frame behind you and stand just inside the front edge when tracking. If you can get something non reflective in front of you (thick curtains, even a bookshelf full of paperbacks) even better. As good as real acoustic treatment? Nope. Good enough for your college years and even after that until you buy a place? Yup. And the cost should be no more than you'd spend on a Friday night at the Student Union bar. (Well if you were in the UK or Aus where drinking age is 18 anyhow!)

Hope this helps.
 
I didn't listen to the clips, but to me a "pro" vocal sound - just like everything in audio - is an aggregate thing. In order of importance:

1. A good vocalist
2. A good microphone suited to the vocalist's voice
3. A high quality signal chain (or as high quality as you can muster)
4. A decent room with possibly a little early reflection
5. Maybe a little compression to keep erratic peaks at bay
6. Fader riding to make sure every word is clearly heard

Adding reverb later can also help nestle the vocals into the mix. Layering reverb using a short and long reverb together (judiciously) can go a long way. If your room or booth is completely dead, you could also add early reflections later. That being said, for styles like punk rock, often you can omit reverb altogether to make the vocals sound upfront, right on your nose.

The rest is up to the instrumentation to support it.

Cheers :)
 
Thanks guys,

Unfortunately Bobbsy I'm from the U.S. so that has never been much of an issue for me :drunk:

I use a pop filter for my mic and usually sing between six inches and a foot from it, typically sitting down as I don't have a guitar strap and I've gotten used to the position (maybe too much). I'll try out some of what you've said and post the results. I know with my equipment as is, I'll never get a completely professional sound and that's okay, I just want to make it as good as I possibly can with my gear. I want to start throwing up covers on youtube to garner an online following but won't post until my sound is as good as I can get it here. I think my vocals and guitar playing is good it's just learning the technical aspects of the art which is something I'm not too familiar with as a young musician. There are a couple small recording studio's setup around where I live, I think I'll go and record there a few times, as I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from the engineers and I can really see how the process should work.
 
Well before you start throwing up covers on YouTube throw up covers on your room's hard surfaces. Go into your room when its really quiet. Clap your hands and listen.... hear all that reverberation? That's what's coming back from your walls etc. into your microphone. Get that under control and you'll get an improvement. Learning to sing more quietly, if you can without affecting your tone that is, will help too. Less volume, less reflection of sounds. Don't sing or or play in a direction that's perpendicular to the walls, go at an angle. Be particularly aware that your mic is aiming at your head and will pick up sounds / reflections coming from behind you more so than in front of you... etc. etc. etc. All little things... all will make a little difference, but the combination of them should enable you to get a much better sound.

And buy yourself a guitar strap for Christmas! :D
 
Your room sounds untreated. Room treatment plays a big role in how your recordings sound. Until you treat it, get closer to the mic if it still sounds distant. I'd strongly suggest investing in a decent interface. Your signal chain doesn't have to be all fancy and really long to get great sounds. You have most of the essentials, just fill in the gaps.
 
Hmmmm (as they say). That recording sounds a heck of a lot farther away than six inches to a foot.

To ask a stupidly obvious question, are you sure you're singing into the proper side of your AT mic? Cardioids have a null (dead) side and a sensitive one--your recording sounds like you're getting wall reflections only, not direct voice from six inches away. Even the worst room should do better than that.

Failing that, have you checked the settings on you Zoom recorder to make sure that it's actually using the external mic and not the built in ones which, I assume are not anywhere near you?

Sorry to be so basic, but I'm shocked to hear that the recording you posted is recorded as close to the mic as you say and think we need to start looking for reasons, not just tell you to treat your room and get closer.
 
Mevans..you seem to know what youre doing. So all I could imagine is you just need to get your EQ in place to tweak the sound. I thought your two examples sounded similar, due to the EQ. It wasn't the mic, different singers, but similar sound. The whisper method of singing is obviously your higher presence freq's. some cut everything out at 500hz or so. Try +6at 8k, small cut at 900-1khz small Q, cut 120-130hz steep and maybe a small cut at 250hz,
small boost at 205k can boost presence too.

I read years ago a lot of ME's want that "golden strip" for the "golden track" which is the vocal track. It can be the holy grail for vocalists. I had a Joe Meek channel strip that was cool, I sold it and got the mini version which is cool but the full fledged one was nice, One Q these days.

But with all the plugs available you can build your own with free plugs probably just as good. Save it as your "golden track".

Another thing in the mix is different than setting it up with vox only like voiceover, but you know that. in the mix chop out a lot of lows seems to be a common practice.

or maybe you don't like your voice, that's pretty common too, everyone else might like it , except you.
 
Thanks guys.

Bobbsy: I've never considered that to be honest with you. After just going back and rotating the mic, I realized that I did in fact have the mic positioned backwards. The difference was very clear. I'm so glad you pointed this out! When I first bought the mic I didn't understand the entire functionality of a condenser mic--I had just assumed that both sides were built exactly the same way, so I had never even given it a second thought to reposition it when my voice was off. It's funny how something so simple can make a night and day difference. I have a feeling my entire vocal quality mystery is going to dissipate with the mic pointing in the right direction...duh. Thanks!

CoolCat: Thanks man. That's some really useful info. As a self-taught producer (heh, still have lots to learn), it's really good to hear specific advice coming from people like you who have a lot of experience with the subject matter. I know exactly what you mean about that "golden vocal", I've been cooking up a storm of presets in search of it and have stumbled upon its true pertinence for the aspiring vocalist/producer.

Given this advice now I'm going to treat my room as best as possible and work on getting an interface to work more fluently with Pro Tools 11. I still can't for the life of me get the Zoom H4N to function as an interface with the DAW, but if anyone knows how this connection can be done PLEASE let me know, I've been searching for a way for way too long and can't seem to find any solid answers on the internet anywhere. Anyone know? Thanks guys
 
MEvansMusic said:
Thanks guys.

Bobbsy: I've never considered that to be honest with you. After just going back and rotating the mic, I realized that I did in fact have the mic positioned backwards. The difference was very clear. I'm so glad you pointed this out! When I first bought the mic I didn't understand the entire functionality of a condenser mic--I had just assumed that both sides were built exactly the same way, so I had never even given it a second thought to reposition it when my voice was off. It's funny how something so simple can make a night and day difference. I have a feeling my entire vocal quality mystery is going to dissipate with the mic pointing in the right direction...duh. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Don't feel too bad. I've been doing this for years and still get angry at how few mic manufacturers make it clear which is the "good" side and which is the null. So, even now you know what to look for, if you buy another mic you'll still have to experiment!
 
MEvansMusic said:
Thanks guys.


Given this advice now I'm going to treat my room as best as possible and work on getting an interface to work more fluently with Pro Tools 11. I still can't for the life of me get the Zoom H4N to function as an interface with the DAW, but if anyone knows how this connection can be done PLEASE let me know, I've been searching for a way for way too long and can't seem to find any solid answers on the internet anywhere. Anyone know? Thanks guys
Click to expand...

THIS video may provide some help.

What it glosses over entirely is how to tell Protools to use the H4N as it's input source and output. It's more than a decade and many new versions since I've used PT but, from memory, it used to be on the Setup menu with a confusing name like "Playback Engine" or similar even though it actually does recording and playback.

Anyhow, once your computer has recognised the H4N, it should appear on the PT hardware list.

Hopefully somebody who actually knows PT should be along to help my very faulty memory.
 
MEvansMusic said:
I've been cooking up a storm of presets in search of it and have stumbled upon its true pertinence for the aspiring vocalist/producer.
Click to expand...

cool....I think this is the route to go, plugs and creating your own "golden channel","go to strip" etc.. or with software you can cheaply create a bunch of them.

You'll probably want to taste some analog units / outboard at some point as most do...I know I did.
Its hardly logical for me to spend money on outboard gear when the software stuff is so cheap, or free, and sounds fine.
I dont have any experience other than a HR hobbyist, but yeah, all the info is out there...read,read, read, and listen.

mic> preamp> comp/eq/ or eq/comp...maybe de-ess. nothing new or changing about this. (although auto-tune is used more than in the old days)

I look forward to the day someone goes platinum with a HR setup and free plugs and a $99 vocal mic..lol
it'd be great.

Your already ahead of me, "cooking up a storm of presets" sounds like fun.
 
Bobbsy, yeah thanks again for pointing that, I definitely had a WTF moment when I discovered this (in the best way possible of course :facepalm:). I've watched that vid at some point but I'm going to take another look at it and give it another whirl. It's probably some small detail that's not allowing the connection . . . if I remember correctly, at one point in the past, I did get the Zoom to work (with Pro Tools 10), but it was distorted and had a fair amount of latency. I does appear in the playback engine window directly beneath the ASIO4ALL as 'Zoom H4N' so I'm assuming pro tools recognizes it on some level. I know they're picky about third party interfaces so I've been fairly skeptical when dealing with this issue.

CoolCat this is definitely true. I'm just trying to establish that "golden sound" for some cover videos that I want to put out. For other original songs, or maybe covers in the future I just want to go to an actual studio to record them (probably still edit them myself if I have the know how), then go from there...the storm I've been cooking up has been pretty ugly so far, I know though once I learn enough and experiment, one day (hopefully soon) I'll find it.
 
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I just want to point out that this thread should be an example of how ALL threads should be . Stayed on topic , helped with the problem ,and added good on point advice!

Nice work guys!!
 
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