Two audio card questions (VST latency and recording quality)

I

ivanlychkov

New member
Hello! I have problems with too long timeout between the moment I press a key and the moment when I hear it. In the beginning the latency was quite bad, about 1 second, and then I've installed asio4all and it got much better, but still it is constantly about 50 ms.
My configuration is: 2.3GHz CPU, 1Gb RAM, Windows XP SP2, very old Creative SB Audigy LS sound card. I use Vsthost by Hermann Seib and only connect one VST instrument at a time.
What can possibly cause the problem? One of my friends told me that I need a better sound card, but I want to be sure before I buy it.
And I've got another sound card-oriented question. I record music through a Behringer Xenyx mixer using my old sound card. Will the sound quality really get _that_ better if I would buy a better sound card? Here's an example of what I sound like now:
Laughed All Day - YouTube
Thanks!
Ivan.
 
The noise floor is real low on the newer usb interfaces (which translates to less background noise on the line-in).

The computer is very much under powered for ANY modern day VST work. It needs to be put out to pasture.

Minimum would be a dual core (4+ core ideal) with 2+GB system memory (4+GB ideal), Windows 7+ (mind as well be 64bit), and a decent usb interface intended for music production. You could probably get the PC and interface second hand, and save yourself a few bucks.
 
Your friends are spot on!
The SB cards are a bit notorious for poor latency performance (although the replay quality is quite good).

By far the quickest, simplest, "one stop shop" solution is a decent PCI card and there is none better for the money than the M-Audio Delta 2496. Problem, they are rather rare these days, well certainly here in UK.

So, you will probably have to go in for a USB Audio Interface. The problem here is, which one for lowest latency? There is only one USB AI that I could recommend, hand on heart, from personal experience that is under £500 and that is the Native Instruments KA6. Plenty of other fine AIs of course but none, AFAIK come close to the KA6 in terms of low latency.

The computer of course leaves something to be desired but musician son coped with about the same for a year or two, if nothing else, try to get another gig of memory in it.

Dave.
 
Pinky, Dave, thank you for your answers.
I am quite particular to not upgrading my PC, for I like Windows XP too much. This OS gives me more control over what I do than the newer versions, and it even looks much better to me. I have to use Windows 7 at work and I, well, don't like it too much.
Keeping in mind that I don't plan to use nothing more than just 1 synthesizer in the chain, maybe my current PC will do. Though I will consider extending the RAM.
Yes, M-Audio 2496 are quite rare, and most probably my computer's motherboard doesn't have the needed interface to plug it in.
Dave, haven't you by any chance tested Focusrite Scarlett audio interfaces? I've heard some good responses on them.
 
Windows xp is simply too old to integrate with modern kit. I still have avid on an old computer with Px, and it too has an audibly card in it and it works absolutely fine, but that is because it's a complete system of it's time. Asio4all is a great driver to make one device talk to another, but latency is NOT part of the design. It's made to allow driver conflicts to become less of a problem. Your system is a decade behind and kit built since it was designed has zoomed ahead. Even simple vsti's now use up substantial resources, because most people have them available. I have lots of orchestral samplers and every time I upgrade to the newest version, processor demand goes up, and this means a new computer in many cases. It's just how it is. Nobody is now producing new drivers for Xp,so at some point you will want to buy something that will kill the machine dead. You will install it, it will mess up your stable system, and you will have lost the recovery file or something, and the entire system is done and dusted. It's like insisting your car that needs special fuel is the only choice, it's not. My cubase 8 system, on a pretty fast processor, with bags of memory still occasionally glitches and I then realise I have multiple instances of samplers loaded, software synths, loads of effects and processing, often inherited from the older working file I started with. I doubt you could even load the file, let alone run it. Old computers are considered antiques at ten years. Honestly, just so elderly that they can only do elderly things. Xp was good, but way, way back in time. If Microsoft stop supporting a product so popular, you have to ask if working with it is still sensible. I have a policy of moving back my number one computer to the next less stressful job as I buy new. Video in HD is the most stressful, so cubase and audio sits on number 2 computer, the ex-number one. Avid is the one rarely turned on, but still stable. My old, old audio computers are now running lighting software, which doesn't tax them too much. Three years ago, one of these lowly things was my number 1 machine.

If you are serious about recording you have to be serious about your hardware. If you look at computer processors on google, can you even find yours. 50ms seems pretty good for xp and your processor. Rubbish for recording though!
 
Rob, your point is really good.
But I hate anything that's too complicated. New operations systems get more and more unjustifiably complicated. I'm a programmer, so I ought to know. I think that currently IT development is going in an entirely wrong direction. That's why I stay with Windows XP. All this is only my opinion, of course.
So I try to get the best I can from my current computer.
 
I'm afraid life will get gradually more and more complicated if you DON'T change your OS.

I like XP too but, as you look to upgrade your Soundblaster to something better, you're going to find a lot of the best options no longer publish drivers to support it. The same is happening with lots of DAW software...for example, more and more are now working only in 64 bit systems.

So long as your system can be static you'll be fine but, as you're finding with the Soundblaster (and I agree 100% that its a bad choice for any audio work beyond Skype calls and watching Youtube) sometimes change is necessary.

I moved to Windows 7 a few years back when my DAW software moved to 64 bit only and it's not as bad as it seemed...nicely stable and, once you're set up for your sound, it just sits there and works. Also, don't forget that when you buy a specialist ASIO interface, much of the control will be via dedicated software, not the Windows audio section. That's the thing with ASIO...basically it lowers latency by by-passing most of Windows.
 
Now it's embarassing: I've checked the system requirements of Native Instruments KA6 and Focusrite Scarlett audio interfaces. Neither of them supports Windows XP. And M-Audio 2496 is nowhere to be found.
Will I have to give up after all?
I don't want to upgrade to a faster PC. Faster means more expensive and complicated. This whole thing is driving me mad. I guess I will have to stay with what I have. Still there is a way to record VST instruments for me - I can record MIDI sounds using a sequencer while monitoring in real-time with no VST efects, and then put the recorded performance through a synthesizer.
Today got me so downhearted, I have to confess.
 
Thank you Bob. Now your phrase about life getting more complicated certainly done something to me. Though I'm still not ready to give everything up and upgrade.
My problem is that I like to have control over things. And Windows 7 doesn't allow me to have enough control. It is so encapsulated, and I can't get along with it, and it won't get along with me.
 
Rob and Bobbsy make valid points that need to be heeded.

Having said that, I'm still using XP. I'm still using a Firepod. I'm using the latest version of Reaper, and I'm pretty lavish in my use of plugins and tracks, and I haven't found the system running out of steam.

So you probably can get by for a while. Upping your RAM would help, so would ditching the SB for an interface.
 
Hello again Ivan,
I can understand Rob's and others point about XP but I have to disagree to some extent.

A computer is just a machine, how it does its job depends on many factors but since your requirements are very low, I do not believe you would have trouble upgrading the interface. (as soon as I am able I shall try my KA6 on my XP machine. Better specc' than yours I will agree but I am sure I have done this in the past with good results. )

Even if the KA6 will NOT work on XP you could look for an M-Audio Fast track pro (note, must be "fast, track, pro" not the cheapy, one lunged horror!) This is a USB 1.1 device but will run 2 channels at 44.1kHz and 24bits and MIDI. The mic pres are pretty poor but you have a mixer?

I HAD a Tascam 144 which will DEFF work on XP! Not sure how good they were for latency but I don't recall any gripes? Another good, old AI was the ESI 0404 USB.

Look up the Audio Optimizations for XP and do them. If you can, run without any anti- malware software (I run WSE on W7 but cannot do that in XP). Check Google for the "Services" you can safely disable many of them and claim back CPU and ram grunt. Get rid of any clever video animation and such.

Get "Speccy" Ccleaner and Revouninsatller (find them at Ninite - Install or Update Multiple Apps at Once) Run Speccy and post the exact specc' of the machine.

Lastly for now, WTH are you Ive? At the very least I probably have a gig of ram you can have.

Dave.
 
Other than comfort, Win7 is not more complex, actually the opposite. Computers are so much less complex, they are boring. I am only saying this as a point of reference, but when I first started this computer business, you had to solder memory, use jumpers of I/O and IRQ, if there was a conflict, the computer would often not even boot. You had to check all of your cards, mess with the jumpers, etc.

Now, you just plug in a USB, do some settings and off to the races. Even if you use an internal card, IRQ, I/O is configured by the OS and 99% of the time, it just works. Higher grade the card, the more fuss free it is.

If you do like many that don't want to upgrade, you need to stay technology locked. Meaning, just use what works, but don't expect to add much, if anything to the rig. That's OK, if it get's the job done. But if you want to stay current (for whatever reason), I am afraid upgrading is the only option. Other than learning a new OS, it isn't complex, but it is learning. But recording itself is a constant learning.
 
DM60 said:
Other than comfort, Win7 is not more complex, actually the opposite. Computers are so much less complex, they are boring. I am only saying this as a point of reference, but when I first started this computer business, you had to solder memory, use jumpers of I/O and IRQ, if there was a conflict, the computer would often not even boot. You had to check all of your cards, mess with the jumpers, etc.

Now, you just plug in a USB, do some settings and off to the races. Even if you use an internal card, IRQ, I/O is configured by the OS and 99% of the time, it just works. Higher grade the card, the more fuss free it is.

If you do like many that don't want to upgrade, you need to stay technology locked. Meaning, just use what works, but don't expect to add much, if anything to the rig. That's OK, if it get's the job done. But if you want to stay current (for whatever reason), I am afraid upgrading is the only option. Other than learning a new OS, it isn't complex, but it is learning. But recording itself is a constant learning.
Click to expand...

I fear so DM! Very recent events have just caught up wih me. I plugged the KA6 into my last XP PC and it found it and told me "this device is working properly" Was it bollock!
Samplitude would not find it nor Adobe Acrobat 1.5. The driver I dldd from Native ran then said (effectively) "buy a new computer!" I am sure the KA ran in XP a year or so ago but I have done a firmware upgrade since so maybe that has buggered it for XP?

So,you MIGHT find a legacy XP drive for the AI but the likelyhood is that upgrades will put it out of use. This is NOT to say that the other, older AIs will not work, I am sure they would but if really low latency is what you want, the KA6 is the way to go.

I now have to get shot of XP for good. The nail in the coffin was when I found BBC Radio iPlayer does not support IE8 nor anything older than Vista.

Anyone have a copy of W7 Home 64 bit they can sell me? 7

Dave.
 
Wow, that's lots of information, thank you!

I've seen a Komplete Audio 6 in the local music store today. I think it is just what I need, because it has 4 inputs, and I use 4 microphones for recording. So I won't have to use my Xenyx 502 mixer anymore. The only thing that bothers me is that 2 of the input are labeled "line" - I wonder, can I connect dynamic microphones to them?

My plans for now are to buy an audio interface and see whether it will work with Windows XP. In case it will, I will take no further actions, except happily playing music. If it will not work, then I'll have to make what may be one of the most important steps in my life: I'll migrate to Linux.
I will post an update here as soon as everything will become clearer.

Maybe it's correct to call Windows 7 more user-friendly. But it is just not comfortable for me. I've been using it for more than 2 years (first in the university and then at my work), and I can't get along with it.

Dave (ecc83), I'm sorry, I really hope that I understood your question right (my English is not good enough yet) - and if the question was where do I live, well, I live in Ryazan city in far-away Russia.
 
If the hypothetical here is "Armageddon is tomorrow. In 2025 I find this working PC (hurray!) running Windows XP ( :( ) and there's a pile of compatible PCI cards laying in a box beside it, which one should I choose?" then I would push you towards this:

creative x-fi xtrememusic sb0460

According to Creative's website it has XP support:

Creative Worldwide Support > X-Fi XtremeMusic

This was my last gaming capable PCI card before I stopped gaming and could get a music-purposed PCI card (it was actually the M-Audio 2496 previously mentioned). I'm a few interfaces since then, but I recall the X-Fi xtrememusic worked well [enough] with ASIO4ALL, and I lived tracked regularly with it as well as some VST work.

The Creative card you currently have is garbage. It's a budget model for what is already a budget lineup of sound cards (relative to other options available). It's important though you get the specific card SB0460, there were "xtreme" variants that were named to be intentionally confusing. Thanks Creative.

Mine was a Dell OEM card (came with Dell branded gaming capable PCs):

Amazon.com: Genuine Dell CT602 Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic 7.1-CH SB0460 PCI Audio Sound Card Compatible Part Numbers: CT602, 0CT602: Computers & Accessories

You might be able to score one even cheaper on eBay. I recall only getting $30 for mine when I resold it, as there were many available/being resold. That was probably 6 years ago? Amazon's price is steep for what it is.
 
ivanlychkov said:
Wow, that's lots of information, thank you!

I've seen a Komplete Audio 6 in the local music store today. I think it is just what I need, because it has 4 inputs, and I use 4 microphones for recording. So I won't have to use my Xenyx 502 mixer anymore. The only thing that bothers me is that 2 of the input are labeled "line" - I wonder, can I connect dynamic microphones to them?

My plans for now are to buy an audio interface and see whether it will work with Windows XP. In case it will, I will take no further actions, except happily playing music. If it will not work, then I'll have to make what may be one of the most important steps in my life: I'll migrate to Linux.
I will post an update here as soon as everything will become clearer.

Maybe it's correct to call Windows 7 more user-friendly. But it is just not comfortable for me. I've been using it for more than 2 years (first in the university and then at my work), and I can't get along with it.

Dave (ecc83), I'm sorry, I really hope that I understood your question right (my English is not good enough yet) - and if the question was where do I live, well, I live in Ryazan city in far-away Russia.
Click to expand...

No, you cannot use two extra mics with the KA6. The line inputs accept iirc, nominal Operating Level balanced of +4dBu or about a volt, way above mic levels.
You could still drive a line in from the mixer, that will give you 3 microphones.

I can tell you for certain that the KA6 will work on Linux. I loaned my box to a guy at Sound On Sound | Recording Techniques | Audio Technology | Music Production | Computer Music | Video Media (a much smarter PC guy than I am!) and he said it worked fine and he bought one.

Russia eh? Bit steep on postage that! Best of luck and keep us posted.

Dave.
 
Could he not get two more inputs by panning inputs to his Xenyx hard L and R then feeding the main outs of the mixer to inputs 3 and 4 of the KA6?
 
Bobbsy said:
Could he not get two more inputs by panning inputs to his Xenyx hard L and R then feeding the main outs of the mixer to inputs 3 and 4 of the KA6?
Click to expand...

No mate, the 502 only has ONE mic pre amp.

NOTE TO ALL NOOBS! NEVER buy a mixer or interface with just one mic channel....You WILL regret it.

Don't know WTF they make such things? The World and his Wife is STEREO FFS! Has been for decades (well, WE have had 3D hearing since we evolved from the primordial slime!)

Dave.
 
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