That's IT!!! I've had it!!!

A lot of people will disagree with me. I use VSTs but VERY sparingly. Not because they arent great. But I have found that if your recordings rely a lot on VSTs to get the sounds you want, if you ever loose them--and it can happen--your original tracks are no good. At least not until you go in an apply another VST to all of the tracks that used it. If you record the sound you need going in, its there, done for as long as you have the wave files. I use various reverbs, and compression as post processing. Sometimes I'll use a particular effect. But I never use midi to create another instrument.
 
Update!!!

Good evening one and all!

I'm just getting ready to start from scratch to try getting my MIDI modules working.

Here is a list of all my gear, starting with my PC:

System:
Processor: Intel Core i7 3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz 3.40 GHz
Installed Memory (RAM): 8 GB
System type: 64-Bit Operating System, x64-based processor.

Here is a list of my MIDI Gear, starting with my MIDI controller:

Roland PC-200 MIDI keyboard controller.
M-Audio MIDISport 2x2 MIDI interface.
Ketron SD 2 MIDI module
Roland JV-1010 MIDI module

Audio Interface:
Mackie Pro FX 8 v2 8 Channel Professional Effects Mixer (USB)
Alesis Monitor Speakers

Software:
Sonar Platinum
Reaper: Still evaluating

I have literally disconnected every wire that had going from one piece of hardware to another piece of hardware, starting at the keyboard MIDI controller. And now to reconnect, step by step. As I look at all the gear I have listed here, it looks like it should be a very easy task to do... on paper anyway.

1: Keyboard controller's MIDI out to MIDIsport MIDI Interface's IN
2: MIDISport MIDI Interface's OUT A to SD2 MIDI IN
3: SD2 MIDI OUT to Mackie IN
4: Mackie MAIN OUT to Alesis Monitor Speakers.

* According to Mackie the mixer is not supposed to need USB drivers. However, when I start up both Sonar or Reaper a message comes up saying that it can't find the ASIO driver. My understanding from past experience is that you need to have the ASIO driver installed in order to record audio. If this is the case, I am unsure of where to find the driver. I'm afraid to install the wrong one. The closest I have come is "ASIO4All" which I haven't installed as of yet. I have seen a lot of posts saying that this driver shouldn't be used. Not sure why but I'm waiting to hear from someone here regarding this driver.

At this point I think its better to concentrate on getting the SD2 up and running first, seeing as it is the easier module to connect to. Once I have it going I can then work at getting the Roland module to work as well.

Two hours later:

I'm very pleased to report that all my time and work today has rewarded me with success!!! At least as far as the Ketron and Sonar goes. I'm thinking that it was quite possible that I was plugging in wrong cables into wrong places. The cables were a total disaster behind the scenes. It was over an hour before I got them all pulled out to make it possible to actually see where they were being plugged in. Once I got everything going, I spend another hour playing around and reminding myself how many great sounds the Ketron has.

My next move is to get the the Roland up and running.

The MIDI keyboard controller OUT will go into the M-Audio IN (B)
The M-Audio OUT (B) will go to the JV-1010 IN
The JV-1010 OUT will go to the Mackie mixer (audio interface)
The Mackie mixer's main out goes to the Alesis monitor speakers.

If this setup works, I have a question to ask... How would I hook things up so that I won't have to switch cables to use one or the other module?

I gotta thank all you guys who urged and persuaded me to trek on with my own gear instead of putting out $$$ for VST. I now think that I can still use free ones as well as the modules.

I'll let you know how the JV-1010 thing works out.

Bobby
 
Hi Travis...

Yeah, I know, huh? I installed the ASIO4ALL, and it seems to be working fine. Sonar found it right away. Now, I haven't done any audio since installing it but I'm thinking it should be OK.

I got the Roland up and running!!! I certainly owe myself a hard kick in the butt for being so lazy about the cables. I should have pulled them all apart right from the beginning. If I did, I wouldn't have gone off on a rant here in this thread. The Ketron SD2 is a very neat piece of hardware. But the Roland JV-1010 is fantastic!!! I forgot about how many sounds it has, and that's without the expansion board that you can get for it. I would love to find one but it is so old - I think it was discontinued back in the early 2000s. In fact, it was already discontinued when I bought it. But it still is great. Believe it or not, in all of my frustration the other night, I was actually looking at a VERY expensive VST package. In all of the demonstrations I saw, the big thing about it was all of it's thousands of sound effects - more effects than instruments from what I could tell. Well, my Roland has a ton of effects as well as a lot of great instruments. For sure, not as many as the VST bundle, but still more than I will ever use. And the Roland didn't cost $600.

Now, before I start putting everything back to where it is supposed to be, I need to have someone show me how to hook up both modules to each other in a way that I don't have to change the cables going to the MIDI controller when I want to switch from one module to the other. I'm thinking that it may have something to do with the "MIDI Thru" stuff on both modules but I haven't really a clue where to start.

As usual, all help is very much appreciated!!!

Bobby
 
Hi,

Midi has 'channels' built in to the protocol so a midi keyboard sending on channel two will be ignored by a device that listens on channel one.
Default settings on midi devices are generally 'omni' so, by default, everything should work with everything.

If you have two hardware midi instruments, instead of patching the midi cable in and out as required, you can set your instruments to listen on channels 1,2,3 (etc..however many you have).

Then, to choose what hardware instrument you're going to be playing, you tell your midi controller to send on channel 1/2/3 etc.

The cable setup is
keyboard midi output to first instrument midi input
first instrument midi thru to second instrument input
second instrument thru to third instrument input

'thru' is like a splitter for midi, I guess - It sends on a copy of whatever is received at the input.

Now, that's theory. Whether your specific midi devices all support this is another question.

The other half of that is the analog audio return journey.
You could either make sure that every hardware midi device is returning its audio output to an available audio input on the mixer/interface,
or you could set up and audio patchbay that lets you quickly switch which device is returning.
Again, I'm making general statements rather than checking your specific gear specs. Sorry....got a few things going on! ;)
 
Hello Bobby,

I'm really glad you're getting things sorted out! I don't know anything about modules so can't help you there, sorry.

There are lots of other places with free VSTs. There are some synths and romplers that are incredibly good with any patch/voice/effect you can imagine. Some of the companies that normally charge for their VSTs occasionally have free ones. Sound Toys comes to mind. There is a newsletter that provides lots of good links to that sort of thing and other freebies. Here's the link: Bedroom Producers Blog - Freeware For Musicians!

I signed up for that newletter years ago and have some great items from it. Some VST/VSTIs require an ilok account, which is a little more of a hassle but not too bad. Fortunately they are the minority.

I think you'll find so many VSTs/VSTIs that you'll have a blast tinkering with them for a long, long time! All the best to you, Bobby!
 
Thanks, Steenamaroo...

I've had too much excitement for one day from getting both modules working. :laughings:
I'm a bit tired right now so I figure it best to leave well enough alone for now. Right now, I'm afraid to touch anything for fear that I might screw something up. :)
But I will follow your instructions tomorrow before I carefully put the modules back in their proper place... one wire at a time.

Bobby
 
Wires? Did you say WIRES???

Wires.jpeg


Here's how everything looks right now, after getting everything working today. I really have to invest in a few shorter wires.
 
" I really have to invest in a few shorter wires. "

Beware, a bit. Don't be tricked into buying costly specialist 'MIDI' cables, 5 pin all connected audio DINs are fine (but NOT 3 pin) .
There is a variation, the 'crossover DIN' used waaaay ago to connect tape machines together for copying. Might work, never had one recently to try.

You might even find some v old PC keyboard DINs? They work as well. Of course, if you want a REAL challenge, solder your own! If anyone wants to (go mad that is) you can use mic cable to pins 4 &5 pin 2 common shield (not actually needed) .

Dave.
 
Hi Dave...

Actually, I know about cables and how I could sometimes buy something that could have been substituted for something else that would have been cheaper. But it took me a while to finally learn because I have a drawer that is packed with cables that I probably will never use.

I've been dealing with a Canadian music store for a long time. With them, I save a lot of money by not having to pay the exchange rates that I would pay when buying from the US. They carry every cable, in every length known to mankind, and their prices are very reasonable. My problem is that all my cables are too long now because I had to move my mixer and modules to the other side of my desk. And so they are very close to each other. The shortest MIDI cable I have is 6' and I have a lot that are 10'. Cables that are 3' would be more than enough for my new setup, and I can get them for 4 or 5 bucks apiece, and with free shipping.

I once attempted to make my own cables. It didn't go so well. The blobs of solder were so big that I couldn't get the metal screw piece over it. Others were shorting out. In my case I'm better off letting someone else make them for me. :laughings:

Bobby
 
HI Bobby, I assume you mistyped connection 3 in this one:
1: Keyboard controller's MIDI out to MIDIsport MIDI Interface's IN
2: MIDISport MIDI Interface's OUT A to SD2 MIDI IN
3: SD2 MIDI OUT to Mackie IN
4: Mackie MAIN OUT to Alesis Monitor Speakers.
And actually had the audio out of the SD2 to the Mackie input.
 
Bobby... I see you're getting there.

I have 3 keyboards... and an Axon midi module as well as the JV1010.

I series connect all my midi gear and pick out what I like, at least I used to years ago. The sound is good, but you have to control the mix/panning you're getting on each device.

I have a Casio WK keyboard - has good Casio sounds. A Korg TritonLE - has good Korg sounds. I also on occasion used to run them each individually (a separate midi cable to each) with no chaining.

Each midi cable carries 16 channels with an instrument on each. I'm not so sure about the JV1010 (I believe it has a GM setting), but all my other devices can play 16 different instruments each at the same time. I do have my favorite instrument sounds based on the type of music I am recording.

What tied all my midi together is the MOTU MTP/AV. It has 8 midi in & 8 midi out ports to support up to 128 simultaneous midi instruments playing multiple notes at the same time. The MTP/AV also has full clocking capabilities including striping tape and video sync.

I own a WX-5 windsynth and also play sax, among other instruments, so things could really be complicated as far as routing. Personally I'm still a hardware guy -- low/no latency.

With midi & plugins there is latency. My latest goto method is write notation in Finale and export a midi file. Work with the midi in Reaper & the FA-08. Make a midi file(s) when I'm happy. Print the midi to audio (wav) using the FA-08 -- walk away, coffee, etc. and come back.

Take ALL the audio waves (1 per midi channel) and load them into Reaper. Mix them down through my 896mk3Hy io interface using CueMix into 8 stereo channels, feed that into my VS-2480 and then feed that back via digital stereo into Reaper to record.

I use a few VST plugins on both ends in Reaper, a little compression & reverb in CueMix, main effects in the VS-2480 as well as LA2A/1176LN compression & mastering effects.

The VST plugin route for instruments will allow you to keep the midi separated on separate audio channels. I use the FA-08 for almost all of my instrument sounds now. I solely work with wav files after the FA-08 converts them from midi. It would take me a while to hook everything up the way I want it... but it might happen.

I have a TC-Helicon VoiceLive rack for harmonies... adding choirs and what not. And I rarely use my GSP1101 at all... I'm actively putting out and selling cds, but it all takes time to hook everything up right. Sadly, I haven't done it yet.

If you're just getting started and not a lot of money invested along the way, it seems VST for everything and reWire is the way to go these days.

I have hardware for all my sounds, i.e., my various keyboards and modules, but I'm only using my FA-08 right now. With keyboards/modules I don't have full routing capability for each instrument/section. This leads to not being able to put different effects on say, a french horn vs strings section.

To me, if I apply effects to a whole keyboard or module, even with panning or 11-band eq, it just doesn't sound real to me. VST's are already on their own channel and can be routed just like audio tracks. I can run everything all at once and do mixing and mastering in one take with the only final process being to print to cd, etc.
 
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Bobby, Reaper is a fine program. If u need direct in for guitar and mic, I would suggest Behringer for 50 or 100 bucks. I just got the 1202 USB because I needed phantom power for my condenser mic. IKMultimedia makes a nice suite of sounds on a budget price. The guitars aren't so great, but other than that, they have some great retro synths. Maybe a Reaper forumnpost will help your technical problems.
 
Your ASIO drivers should be specific to yoru interface, but since you only have a MIDI interface, not audio, not sure they matter. How do you listen to music from your computer, the built-in soundcard?

Hi Mike... sorry for taking so long getting back to you. I've been spending more time playing around with my MIDI stuff, I haven't been around here much.

No... I'm not using my computer's sound card... I'm using a Mackie Pro FX 8 mixer. I am using the M-Audio 2X2 MIDI interface. I am very pleased to report that I now have all my gear up and running as it should. So glad about that because I was very close to spending $600 for a VST suite.

As for the ASIO driver... I couldn't find one that pertained to my mixer. In fact, there are no drivers whatsoever that are needed for it. So I downloaded and installed ASIO4ALL and it is working very well.

Thanks again for your comeback...

Bobby
 
HI Bobby, I assume you mistyped connection 3 in this one:

And actually had the audio out of the SD2 to the Mackie input.

Um... I have my MIDI keyboard controller's "OUT" going to my M-Audio's MidiSport 2x2 "IN"
M-Audio's "OUT" going to my SD 2's "IN"
SD 2's "OUT" going to the Mackie.

I have to tell you that the SD 2's "OUT" isn't a MIDI connection but rather RCA jacks. So I have a cable that has RCA jacks on one end and 1/4" unbalanced jacks that go into a channel on the mixer.
Also, I'm using 2 MIDI modules... the SD 2 and an old Roland JV-1010 that has hundreds of sounds. So I have the SD 2 plugged into "A" and the Roland plugged into "B" on the MidiSport.
Everything is working as it should with this setup.
I finally had the sense to pull out and disconnect all wires that pertained to my music equipment and then plug them in one at a time. It was actually very easy to get everything going when I did it with the "one wire at a time" approach.

Bobby
 
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