Some Music theory 101 noob questions.

[Xdrummer]

Rami, I have much respect for your contributions to this site and I rarely disagree with your views - but in this case I do disagree. Like you, I've played drums for a very long time (40 plus years) and I have spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the concept of playing behind the beat vs. ahead of the beat - and I have carelfully analyzed hundreds of hours of studio recordings I've performed on and countless recordings of live performances. There indeed is such a thing as playing behind, ahead and on the beat. While it may not be a conscious approach, it is a feel that is inherent in most seasoned drummers.

While I do agree that if a drummer plays behind the beat for a whole song - then yes, it does simply establish the beat. However, as one example of behind the beat that can be heard in many recordings, often a drummer will play a little behind during a verse and then go a little ahead in a chorus (to gvie the song a lift) and then settle back into the groove.

Old R & B has behind the beat grooves all over the place. Many ballads use the behind the beat groove and then hit the beat more agreesively in the chorus, etc.

I'm not talking about straying or dragging or rushing - I'm talking about manipulating the groove. I've olayed a lot of R & B, funk & "soft jazz" and I manipulate the groove all the time - and if I'm working with good players, they also know how to fall into that groove and then jump out of it when needed.

Now some genres (harder rock, punk, speed metal, etc.) tend to push the groove so the behind the beat feel is not as common. Although you can hear it very clearly in much of the early Sabbeth recordings.

Regarding playing to a click - rarely (if at all) can a drummer consistantly play on the click - both because it is rare that someone has that level of technique and because each person's feel and interpretation of the groove varies. In fact when drummers (or any musician) gets so anal as to focus that intensely on the click - they then become a slave to the click and the performance suffers.

Music needs to breath - playing ahead and behind the beat (at approriate places within a song) - is was allows the music to breath - and makes the difference between music with a fell vs. programed beats that are more technology than art.

[RAMI]

Rami, I have much respect for your contributions to this site and I rarely disagree with your views - but in this case I do disagree. Like you, I've played drums for a very long time (40 plus years) and I have spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the concept of playing behind the beat vs. ahead of the beat - and I have carelfully analyzed hundreds of hours of studio recordings I've performed on and countless recordings of live performances. There indeed is such a thing as playing behind, ahead and on the beat. While it may not be a conscious approach, it is a feel that is inherent in most seasoned drummers.

While I do agree that if a drummer plays behind the beat for a whole song - then yes, it does simply establish the beat. However, as one example of behind the beat that can be heard in many recordings, often a drummer will play a little behind during a verse and then go a little ahead in a chorus (to gvie the song a lift) and then settle back into the groove.

Old R & B has behind the beat grooves all over the place. Many ballads use the behind the beat groove and then hit the beat more agreesively in the chorus, etc.

I'm not talking about straying or dragging or rushing - I'm talking about manipulating the groove. I've olayed a lot of R & B, funk & "soft jazz" and I manipulate the groove all the time - and if I'm working with good players, they also know how to fall into that groove and then jump out of it when needed.

Now some genres (harder rock, punk, speed metal, etc.) tend to push the groove so the behind the beat feel is not as common. Although you can hear it very clearly in much of the early Sabbeth recordings.

Regarding playing to a click - rarely (if at all) can a drummer consistantly play on the click - both because it is rare that someone has that level of technique and because each person's feel and interpretation of the groove varies. In fact when drummers (or any musician) gets so anal as to focus that intensely on the click - they then become a slave to the click and the performance suffers.

Music needs to breath - playing ahead and behind the beat (at approriate places within a song) - is was allows the music to breath - and makes the difference between music with a fell vs. programed beats that are more technology than art.

No problem disagreeing with me. That's what these discussions are all about.

My point is this. As some of you have already mentioned, it's impossible to play EXACTLY on every click. So, even if a drummer tried playing right on a click, some of those notes will be ahead and some will be behind anyway. But now we're sayin that a drummer CAN play consistently ahead of the beat or behind it. How can that be? If you do it enough that it's noticeable, then it will souind off. If you're talking micro-seconds, then how can a drummer all of a sudden be accurate enough to be able to play micro-seconds behind a beat when it's impossible for him to play right on the beat to the closest micro-second? I realize one can play around the beat or click, but that happens naturally anyway.

The Stones example that Mixsit posted doesn't show my anything other than the Stones sounding like the Stones, which is a deliberately loose vibe, which has everyone not really playing together. But if we have to go back 50+ years to find an example of something, I think it's safe to say that either it isn't done that often, or it's an abstract concept that people THINK is about playing behind (or ahead of) the beat., but is really just about playing "around" the meter.

[famous beagle]

Xdrummer and RAMI:

I see both of your points. But Xdrummer, I think what RAMI is saying is ... what exactly do you mean by "playing behind the beat?" If you're just slowing down a bit, then you're changing the tempo. If you speed up, then ... same thing.

To me, the only real way that a drummer could "play behind the beat" for the whole song would be to hit the snare a tiny bit late on 2 and 4. That makes sense to me. Or maybe he could do that with the kick and the snare. But the hat or ride is the time-keeper, and once you start messing with that, then "the beat" shifts with it.

What I always thought of when I heard the term was what people play during fills and such (on drums or any instrument). Whereas rushing has a very distinctive, nervous sound, playing "behind the beat" (slightly dragging) has a very lazy sound. Granted, it can't be much behind it at all; otherwise, it just starts to sound like poor timing. So if the drums are doing a fill, for instance, they might just lay back ever so slightly with regards to the tempo.

This song, IMO, sounds kind of like the drummer is playing behind the beat a bit on the snare. Not every snare hit is late, but many of them are just laying back ever so slightly. The count-off in the beginning is terrible - he actually starts playing a good few bpm faster than he counts - but once the groove settles in, the snare sounds as though it's laying back a little here and there to me. In particular, listen to the 3rd snare hit after the song has officially started (in other words, after the pickup measure).

The Black Crowes - Bad Luck Blue Eyes Goodbye (Studio Version) - YouTube

[RAMI]

Right Beagle. And just to be clear, I might be 100% wrong, but I need to know why I'm wrong about something as opposed to just accepting popular phrases and abstract concepts as truth.

It's not new to me. Obviously, in my years of playing, I've had people tell me to play a little behind the beat. All I did was put on a lazy face, pout my lips, change my body language, play the exact same thing (maybe slightly slower), and they say "Yeah, that's it!"

[famous beagle]

Right Beagle. And just to be clear, I might be 100% wrong, but I need to know why I'm wrong about something as opposed to just accepting popular phrases and abstract concepts as truth.

It's not new to me. Obviously, in my years of playing, I've had people tell me to play a little behind the beat. All I did was put on a lazy face, pout my lips, change my body language, play the exact same thing (maybe slightly slower), and they say "Yeah, that's it!"

Yeah, it's an abstract thing for sure.

Xdrummer: You said you analyzed countless hours. What exactly were you doing differently when you were playing "behind the beat"? I'd really like to know.

[mixsit]

Xdrummer and RAMI:

I see both of your points. But Xdrummer, I think what RAMI is saying is ... what exactly do you mean by "playing behind the beat?" If you're just slowing down a bit, then you're changing the tempo. If you speed up, then ... same thing.

To me, the only real way that a drummer could "play behind the beat" for the whole song would be to hit the snare a tiny bit late on 2 and 4. That makes sense to me. Or maybe he could do that with the kick and the snare. But the hat or ride is the time-keeper, and once you start messing with that, then "the beat" shifts with it.

What I always thought of when I heard the term was what people play during fills and such (on drums or any instrument). Whereas rushing has a very distinctive, nervous sound, playing "behind the beat" (slightly dragging) has a very lazy sound. Granted, it can't be much behind it at all; otherwise, it just starts to sound like poor timing. So if the drums are doing a fill, for instance, they might just lay back ever so slightly with regards to the tempo...l]

I would think that's pretty much more in line with how it might work out mostly- with parts of the playing being pushed in and around the tempo.

Rami, I have much respect for your contributions to this site and I rarely disagree with your views - but in this case I do disagree. Like you, I've played drums for a very long time (40 plus years) and I have spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the concept of playing behind the beat vs. ahead of the beat - and I have carelfully analyzed hundreds of hours of studio recordings I've performed on and countless recordings of live performances. There indeed is such a thing as playing behind, ahead and on the beat. While it may not be a conscious approach, it is a feel that is inherent in most seasoned drummers.

While I do agree that if a drummer plays behind the beat for a whole song - then yes, it does simply establish the beat. However, as one example of behind the beat that can be heard in many recordings, often a drummer will play a little behind during a verse and then go a little ahead in a chorus (to gvie the song a lift) and then settle back into the groove.

Xdrummer wouldn't it be even more or as common, where the drums keep to the tempo but parts of the kit (just the snare or something for example) push it in and out, in various parts of a measure or 'phrase even?
IDK, like if the whole track gets set back a few ms'.. that just seems the song's just being played a little later in in the world..
(simple minded guitar player here...

[Manslick]

Well shit. All this time, I have been practicing drumming to a click and now, just when I am getting to where my transients are on the mark, I find out from the pros that I should be off the mark.
Okay that’s cool, now I have a good comeback in the clinic when someone notices a fault in my timing.

I really don’t think we can explain this in typing. The net is chock full of pages of dudes beating this question to death.

Score 1 for Joker1.

[jokerone]

Right Beagle. And just to be clear, I might be 100% wrong, but I need to know why I'm wrong about something as opposed to just accepting popular phrases and abstract concepts as truth.

It's not new to me. Obviously, in my years of playing, I've had people tell me to play a little behind the beat. All I did was put on a lazy face, pout my lips, change my body language, play the exact same thing (maybe slightly slower), and they say "Yeah, that's it!"

So playing behind the beat in this case (Reggae) means you are playing a a bit slower than the beat, not just offset from the drums?

[mixsit]

..The whole band has to have that jell factor to pull it off and it takes a lot of playing together to be able to pull it off on queue. It’s hard for a one man band to pull it off playing to a metronome. ...

Yes!
Even if I can't ‘know it definitively.. this strikes me as at least one an insight in to it.

How about just the opposite to gelling'- When you hear a track (song) and yeah the tempo might be ok, but it feels like the band hasn’t quite agreed on that tempo.. You could (logically”) say well that’s almost ‘the same thing’-- but for it feeling totally wrong!

[mixsit]

So playing behind the beat in this case (Reggae) means you are playing a a bit slower than the beat, not just offset from the drums?

I gave the example of my mando' player.. I believe you can push or pull' a track around the pocket with a few ms of delay (from one side or the oter). Try it on a few likely candidate' tracks. But I still think -in general, it may (offten?) not be as straight forward as 'offsetting one of two 'perfectly played' pieces?