Thanks, but I never asked your permission.
Did i say i can't handle some damn shitty noise?
Define "damn shitty noise" first. Different for each.So go ahead. You have my permission to do so without my permission.
Recording METAL GUITAR, help...
- Thread starter LouDogInTheVan
- Start date
Did i say i can't handle some damn shitty noise?
Define "damn shitty noise" first. Different for each.So go ahead. You have my permission to do so without my permission.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Pinky
and The Brain...
This is home recording.com, a majority of us suck at our instruments (compared to "professionals").
I lived in a world of no-undo. I refuse to go back.
Pinky
and The Brain...
Why do you seem to always reference money...or "breaking the bank"...in these discussions?
Did someone say you needed to do that, and you're bothered by it...or are you bothered by not doing it?
I also think you're misinterpreting my meaning. I don't see why you would have to go purely virtual in order to do that...to make changes....?
I'm not talking about capturing the source as-is and then not touching it later with any processing.
Also...there's not set "rules" about how you do your tracking. I never suggested that...rather it's simply about following good form...good techniques...but you have a lot of freedom in how you approach that.
To me, the whole focus in the "source" is about getting the best sound, and as closest to the right sound that I want.
Otherwise...there's nothing wrong with applying processing after that during the mix stage.
I do all kinds of adjustments to my source recordings. Never had a problem with making guitar tracks brighter/darker, more bit/less bite, or changing my mind about overall tone...but I like to work with a good amount of the production already in mind when I track (nothing written in stone, but a fairly solid idea of what I want)...so any changes I make, work cohesively with the original source tracks. I also tend to commit to things maybe more than most people do these days, and even when in the DAW, I will delete tracks or part of tracks when I decide on something.
For the times when things just aren't working...I go back to the tracking, rather than trying to process something into submission.
For me...the best and most fun part of music production has always been the tracking. It's what makes recording interesting. Hearing the interaction between the tracks as I add them...and feeling that in real time as I'm playing and recording the next track.
I also thoroughly enjoy working with the mics, dialing in the amps, tuning a drum kit...etc...and in my case, working with the tape deck, loading the machine, watching them reels spins. It's all a very hands-on, "real" experience.
I already spend way too much time later on at the DAW in virtual reality land......and I can't wait to get out of there and to a new tracking session. It's just what I really like doing.
tl;dr
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Yeah for many of us, recording is part of the writing process, and often the initial "demo" just gets added to, edited, and worked with til it ends up being the finished process. It can be really nice to be able to tweak things without having to retrack. It can also be a lot easier when editing/comping parts if you can do that with the raw "dry" sound before it hits any effects.
I was fantasizing about the kind of technology we have today back in 95, and while we're not quite to the completely virual studio situation I had envisioned, it's really close and I'm really happy with where I'm at right now.I lived in a world of no-undo. I refuse to go back.
Pinky
and The Brain...
Sometimes those loose early takes are the keepers.
I mean...click the links in my sig...
Ok, that's some damn noise. But i can't find the "shitty".
Interesting to read this thread.
My .02 cents.....
It's just music. Music last I checked is one of the various forms of what's called art. Do what you want to express yourself.
Few here are doing music as proffessionals. Proffessional as meaning someone doing it as a proffession.. AKA making a living. So do what you want. Maybe millions will like it, maybe only you and your cat or dog.
There's plenty of music that I think is pure garbage on every level. But just like in the US with the 1st amendment protection of free speech, I'll defend your right to make garbage music.
However, anything one pursues should be done to as close as a proffessional level of expertise as possible. To settle for less makes one a dilettante.
In this forum, and others, information is shared where hopefully people will learn and get closer to a proffessional level.
There are established technical procedures that have come about by the trial and error of those that have come before us. These 'learnings' have been codified and documented, and are available for others to learn, use, and benefit from.
Sure, new methods can be discovered, but that is no reason to throw away what already has proven to work.
Many will struggle to do something, and try to figure out a new way only to discover there are thousands who have 'been there, done that'.
What's that old saying? "There's nothing new under the sun".
There's another saying. "You have to learn and know the rules before you can start breaking them"
Use what works, and make some music.
My .02 cents.....
It's just music. Music last I checked is one of the various forms of what's called art. Do what you want to express yourself.
Few here are doing music as proffessionals. Proffessional as meaning someone doing it as a proffession.. AKA making a living. So do what you want. Maybe millions will like it, maybe only you and your cat or dog.
There's plenty of music that I think is pure garbage on every level. But just like in the US with the 1st amendment protection of free speech, I'll defend your right to make garbage music.
However, anything one pursues should be done to as close as a proffessional level of expertise as possible. To settle for less makes one a dilettante.
In this forum, and others, information is shared where hopefully people will learn and get closer to a proffessional level.
There are established technical procedures that have come about by the trial and error of those that have come before us. These 'learnings' have been codified and documented, and are available for others to learn, use, and benefit from.
Sure, new methods can be discovered, but that is no reason to throw away what already has proven to work.
Many will struggle to do something, and try to figure out a new way only to discover there are thousands who have 'been there, done that'.
What's that old saying? "There's nothing new under the sun".
There's another saying. "You have to learn and know the rules before you can start breaking them"
Use what works, and make some music.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah, OK.
Saw this Mixing/Mastering article on Pro Sound Web...has a basic overview of what makes for a good mix from the mastering perspective. Nothing earth shattering...but a couple of points tie into what I was getting at about giving the tracking/source more attention, which actually works in your favor if/when you do add any processing later on.
"Another rule is the more natural each sound is – as in how well recorded – the more easily they will mix."
"A good mix starts here – microphone choice, microphone placement, suitable room, good musicians. If you get all this right then the mixing becomes much easier. You end up needing much less processing like EQ to persuade the mix to, well, mix."
A Mastering Engineer’s View On A Quality Mix - ProSoundWeb
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
I read that, too. Most of those articles are half-assed rehash of the same "insider secrets" that I've been reading about since before there was an internet and you actually had to pick up a paper magazine. "Natural" and "well-recorded" are not necessarily the same thing.
Maybe my last paid production?
Aw, you're making me blush.Ok, that's some damn noise. But i can't find the "shitty".
Maybe my last paid production?
Still can't find the "shitty". Although i can't find a good headbang rythm either (can the drummer count rythm?
).Ok. Next step further will do i guess.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't think the author was suggesting that they were the same thing.
The way I read it...he sees "natural" as capturing the sound of the instrument/source sans any obvious environmental skewing...the unwanted resonances and reflections, etc.
I think "well recorded" maybe partly that, but I think he just means getting what you intended as opposed to capturing a poorly recorded source and then needing to fix it later.
"Well recorded" tracks of the "natural" sources sound you are dealing with...and that can be anything.
There's really nothing in opposition between the DAW environment and lots of virtual processing...and good attention at the sources during tracking. Those things work together and it's not really about choosing one or the other, unless we are talking about pure ITB...samples-n-synths kind of stuff. Not sure who here is doing only that type of production.
I think most people here are putting up mics, in rooms, and capturing at least some of their tracks like that.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
No, but neither can the guitarist, so... Honestly, I don't think that style is actually supposed to have much in the way of definabled grooves. Like the drums aren't there for timing so much as just adding to the racket. That recording is actually a little hi-if for "industry standard" in that genre, but I had fun making it nasty and trashy and kind of overwhelming. Not exactly much of a challenge, but it was fun.(can the drummer count rythm?
miro - I haven't done any kind of poll, but there are a lot of folks around here using drum VSTis and maybe not so many yet still I think a good percentage doing amp sims. Heck, there's a solid chunk of our members who record vocals over downloaded beats.
The really real realities of actually recording in your home - where most of us have to deal with neighbors and co-inhabitants and busy streets and landlords who won't let us build permanent sound treatments and budgets that sometimes make it difficult to even buy the cable we need - often completely preclude those "established techniques" and require us to find suitable alternatives.
For 22 years, the only microphones I ever used for my own recordings (of my own material) were on vocals except maybe one track where I actually put a mic in front of an acoustic guitar. Well, ok, last year we recorded an EP for my old country/goth band, and decided to play with real amps and even real drums just because the other guitarist has a Super Reverb that he never really gets to play (I made him use sims when we played live), and I thought it would be a nice change of pace. But that only works because I've finally got a decent space where we can get some isolation and halfway decent sounds without pissing anybody off.
Edit - Oh that Super is an interesting case on a tangential point. It really does sound pretty nice, but of course it starts to get unreasonably loud somewhere around 3 on the volume knob, and if you want any kind of crunch out of it, you have start killing people. But the one thing that I've always really felt I was missing from amp sims was the spring reverb. A spring unit is complex and chaotic and amplitude dependent, and usually gets at least some actual physical acoustic feedback, and there's really no good way to emulate it in software. The best spring sims I've heard still seem to fall short in the "fwip" and "sproing" categories. Add to that the fact that when you're using sims, at best you can either put the verb before the preamp or after the power amp, neither of which is how an amp actually works, and I've always been kind of disappointed. But then, you know, I plug into this thing and it's not really all that glorious and heavenly as the picture I have in my head either, and by the time it's dialed in appropriately and seated in the mix, I'm not sure it makes a noticeable difference that it's "real springs". Was still fun, and I still reamped all the tracks through it with the verb cranked...
Last edited:
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't doubt that...I only said that I think the majority around here DO use mics for some tracks, and few are doing 100% virtual samples/synth stuff...so the focus on source still applies to one degree or another.
AFA the poor recording environments...yeah, I know that's common too for the hom rec crowd...but again, if you do put up mics for some tracks...it's still about proper techniques with source recording. I mean, not using proper techniques because of lousy recording environments doesn't make things better. If anything, in lousy recording environments, it's probably that much MORE important to do follow the best techniques....yet that's where home rec people often tend to think more about fixing it later.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
The guitar in that Bestial recording was an actual mic (EV Co7 - a great mic that nobody ever talks about, can do anything a 57/58 can do except a little more transparent and a lot hotter) in front of a real 4 x 12 cab that was connected to a Line6 amp. He literally just switched through presets til he liked what he heard, then I moved the mic til it caught what I needed.
I tried to get the drummer to loosen up some of muffling packed in there so they would actually sound kind of like drums, but he hated it. I stuck a stereo mic (ATsomething that I've had for decades and finally killed last year) at the wall a few feet behind him, and a Nady kick duct taped to the paving block he was using to keep the drum from sliding around. If I was going to do it again, I might try harder to make a phasey mess out of it.
I tried to get the drummer to loosen up some of muffling packed in there so they would actually sound kind of like drums, but he hated it. I stuck a stereo mic (ATsomething that I've had for decades and finally killed last year) at the wall a few feet behind him, and a Nady kick duct taped to the paving block he was using to keep the drum from sliding around. If I was going to do it again, I might try harder to make a phasey mess out of it.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I'm a EV guy .... I have several of the Co7s and also the Co9 .... both are better than 57s to my ears and CHEAP!!
I also have about a dozen of the 767s and the ND70s and such.
A while back the 767s were going for 50 bucks so I bought a dozen.