Recording distorted lead guitar

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straight8413

New member
I'm new to recording on my own (started less than a year ago) and while I am making some progress with getting distorted rhythm guitar tracks to sound a little less awful than they sounded at first, I am having a heck of a time recording good leads. Especially octaves that compliment the rhythm guitar but even single note leads just sound...too fizzy and flat I guess is the phrase I'd use.

My recording rig is pretty basic, a Tascam 2488 MKII with a bunch of low end pre-amps (Presonus Studio Channel, ART MPA PRO II's, etc.) and for recording guitar I normally use an SM57 and an old grey Sennheiser MD421-N for close-miking plus a RODE K2 as a room mic (I record in a pretty big room). For guitar I play a hotrodded Les Paul through a Marshall JCM900 SL-X into a Marshall 1960A 4x12 loaded with Vintage 30's and G12T-75's in an x-pattern wired series/parallel. A Tubescreamer dialed in for mild boost in front and a MXR 10-band EQ in the loop; I don't scoop mids and I usually only run the gain at about 50% when tracking rhythm. I used to dime the gain and wonder why my recordings sounded like fizzy mush until I finally just dropped the gain down and layered tracks...sounds WAY better now.

But my lead tracks, even though they are not done with full-throttle gain, still sound crummy. Anybody have any advice for me as to how they would record lead if they were given this exact setup to work with? These leads are just not cutting through the mix and when I try to brighten them up or kick up the mids they just turn to fizz. I basically record at my house to make demos to send to other people I'm working with and it's mostly punk/hardcore type stuff which is easy but getting a really great guitar sound is a lot harder than I initially thought. Any advice appreciated.
 
Man, you tickled all of my sweet spots with that gear and music style. All of that is right in my wheelhouse. Before anyone goes trying to diagnose your problem, let's hear what you got. Post a sound clip of what you think the problem is.
 
Yup, post a solo'd and an in the mix sample if possible then the good ears around here will help you. I'm not one so I'll just listen, read & learn.
 
Thanks for you're replies, all...I cobbled something together this afternoon to kind of illustrate what I'm struggling with here. Be advised it sounds really terrible but that's the idea here I guess, because this is what I'm dealing with. It's a headphone mix with a little compression on the bass going in and some on the drum overheads also but otherwise dry, no reverb and no EQ-ing on my part. The guitar tracks are, firstly a lead track done with a SM57 panned slightly left, and a MD421 panned slightly right, from the same take. The rhythm guitar is one SM57 track panned at 9 o'clock, with a track using a Rode K2 (from the same take, set between omni and cardioid as a room mic) panned hard right. Then a MD421 rhythm guitar track panned at 3 o'clock, with a K2 room track from the same take panned hard left. In the recording I switch between the SM57 and MD421-recorded lead tracks whenever there is lead, and during the rhythm-only parts I have it SM57 only, MD421 only, SM57+K2 (same take), then MD421+K2(same take). I took out all the rhythm tracks at a couple of points while the lead was playing so it can be heard better.

Ha ha it's hard to sit through, even for me.

https://soundcloud.com/robert-barry-458793257/song154wav
 
straight8413 said:
Thanks for you're replies, all...I cobbled something together this afternoon to kind of illustrate what I'm struggling with here. Be advised it sounds really terrible but that's the idea here I guess, because this is what I'm dealing with. It's a headphone mix with a little compression on the bass going in and some on the drum overheads also but otherwise dry, no reverb and no EQ-ing on my part. The guitar tracks are, firstly a lead track done with a SM57 panned slightly left, and a MD421 panned slightly right, from the same take. The rhythm guitar is one SM57 track panned at 9 o'clock, with a track using a Rode K2 (from the same take, set between omni and cardioid as a room mic) panned hard right. Then a MD421 rhythm guitar track panned at 3 o'clock, with a K2 room track from the same take panned hard left. In the recording I switch between the SM57 and MD421-recorded lead tracks whenever there is lead, and during the rhythm-only parts I have it SM57 only, MD421 only, SM57+K2 (same take), then MD421+K2(same take). I took out all the rhythm tracks at a couple of points while the lead was playing so it can be heard better.

Ha ha it's hard to sit through, even for me.

https://soundcloud.com/robert-barry-458793257/song154wav
Click to expand...

Man I expected way worse than that. That wasn't that bad at all for the style. That's what that amp sounds like (I've had one).

But the lead bits do sound a little thin and nasally. First off I'd recommend not spreading out the close-mic lead tracks. There's no need. Use one or the other or keep them stacked to compliment each other. Make sure you keeep the mics in phase when close miking with multiple mics.

Anyway, for that tone, it sounds like your mic placement might be pretty bright. That amp and those speakers paired up have a natural mid-scoop voicing. It's a high gain rig. So I'd suggest move the mic a little further to the edge of the speaker - like halfway. That will reduce the sizzle and fizzle. Then roll off a little bit of highs/presence and jack up the mids.

Try that and see what happens.
 
The SL-X model is a hard beast to tame...this was recorded without the Tubescreamer or the EQ pedal engaged. I have the Presence at 7, the Gain Sensitivity at 14 and the Preamp Volume at 6 when I record.

So center the lead tracks, you're saying? I had them panned a little but not terribly far...the closer to the rhythm tracks, the more they disappear because they do not cut through at all. I'll give that a go. The MD421 and SM57 can give a nice tone together.

Right now both close mics are at the edge of the dust cap with the SM57 off axis a bit...plenty of room to move out. I've got the mids at 2 and treble at 8.5 for this so I'll try bringing them up and down, respectively.
 
straight8413 said:
The SL-X model is a hard beast to tame...this was recorded without the Tubescreamer or the EQ pedal engaged. I have the Presence at 7, the Gain Sensitivity at 14 and the Preamp Volume at 6 when I record.
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The second gain on those amps is yuck to me. This is just my opinion, but I'd use the primary preamp gain and hit it with the Tube Screamer for extra kick. Leave that second gain off. It's an old cliche, but it's true - less gain is usually better for recording.

So center the lead tracks, you're saying? I had them panned a little but not terribly far...the closer to the rhythm tracks, the more they disappear because they do not cut through at all. I'll give that a go. The MD421 and SM57 can give a nice tone together.
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The leads don't have to be centered, but don't pan the mics apart. That doesn't achieve anything with dual close mics besides bring out phase problems which will just thin the sound further. Keep both mics panned to the same place, wherever you decide that to be, and blend the levels to achieve the sound you want.

Right now both close mics are at the edge of the dust cap with the SM57 off axis a bit...plenty of room to move out. I've got the mids at 2 and treble at 8.5 for this so I'll try bringing them up and down, respectively.
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That seems like a pretty good mic spot. Mids at 2 and Treb at 8.5 is probably most of the problem. That can't not sound hollow and thin. Yikes. Get them mids way up.

And you didn't mention it, but where's the overall volume? That's another potential problem. If you're not moving some air, you're not gonna get a thick present tone with an amp like that. Low volume = thin.
 
Do you think I should not pan the rhythm tracks so far apart too? Those aren't dual close mics but it is 2 mikes. In that track I posted, I recorded one take on a SM57 close mic'd and at the same time had a K2 back about 6 feet set between omni and cardioid, and with the MD421 take I used the K2 as well in the same position. I panned it so the SM57 and MD421 are opposite each other 180 degrees, but the K2 tracks for the same takes are panned hard opposite each other. I mean realistically I have zero idea what I'm doing here.

The Master Volume is at 3, which is the lowest volume the amp sounds like itself. Not quiet by any stretch with this amo but I could definitely go higher. I'll mess with the EQ tomorrow on the head. Thanks!
 
straight8413 said:
Do you think I should not pan the rhythm tracks so far apart too? Those aren't dual close mics but it is 2 mikes. In that track I posted, I recorded one take on a SM57 close mic'd and at the same time had a K2 back about 6 feet set between omni and cardioid, and with the MD421 take I used the K2 as well in the same position. I panned it so the SM57 and MD421 are opposite each other 180 degrees, but the K2 tracks for the same takes are panned hard opposite each other. I mean realistically I have zero idea what I'm doing here.
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All of that is personal preference. But for your style, with raging but similar guitar takes, I'd go full wide on both pairs of takes. Put one close mic/room mic pair full 100% to either side, and use the room track just enough to give it some ambiance. So you'll have say the 57 track and it's corresponding room track full left, and the 421 track and it's corresponding room track full right. Let the close mic tracks be the main sound and use the room tracks just enough to give you the room sound you want. That's the typical hard rock guitar panning mix setup. You can do it however you want though.

The Master Volume is at 3, which is the lowest volume the amp sounds like itself. Not quiet by any stretch with this amo but I could definitely go higher. I'll mess with the EQ tomorrow on the head. Thanks!
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3 isn't terrible, but I bet it'll sound better if you can get it up around at least 5. Somewhere from 4-6 is where they usually really start to come alive. 7-ish is usually where they top out and just get fatter and more compressed after that. So no, it doesn't have to be cranked, but get it up where it's pumping out more volume.

Less gain, more mids, more volume. Good tone.
 
Okay, so I dialed the head in with the bass down from 6 to 5, the treble at 5, and the mids to 8. I took the Preamp Volume and Presence down a bit as well and used the Tubescreamer to make up for it. I left the mic setup the same, but panned the SM57 close and room tracks hard left, and the MD421 close and room tracks hard right. Panned the lead tracks on top of each other and set the Master Volume to 5. Now unfortunately I record in the same room as the amp and had a really hard time hearing the bass and drums while I was tracking so this is sloppy as heck...and I'm definitely not in love with the rhythm guitar sound with these settings. I'm going to do another pass at all of it with the mics closer to the speaker's dust cap and set the room mic up further back because I think I ran into phase issues there, they were most unusable when panned on top of the close mic tracks from the same take. The lead tracks were a heck of lot more coherent sounding to me though!

https://soundcloud.com/robert-barry-458793257/song154wav2
 
straight8413 said:
Okay, so I dialed the head in with the bass down from 6 to 5, the treble at 5, and the mids to 8. I took the Preamp Volume and Presence down a bit as well and used the Tubescreamer to make up for it. I left the mic setup the same, but panned the SM57 close and room tracks hard left, and the MD421 close and room tracks hard right. Panned the lead tracks on top of each other and set the Master Volume to 5. Now unfortunately I record in the same room as the amp and had a really hard time hearing the bass and drums while I was tracking so this is sloppy as heck...and I'm definitely not in love with the rhythm guitar sound with these settings. I'm going to do another pass at all of it with the mics closer to the speaker's dust cap and set the room mic up further back because I think I ran into phase issues there, they were most unusable when panned on top of the close mic tracks from the same take. The lead tracks were a heck of lot more coherent sounding to me though!

https://soundcloud.com/robert-barry-458793257/song154wav2
Click to expand...

That's better to me. The lead tone is way better.

The rhythms are not bad when you're playing, but the palm mute sections sound pretty nasty.

My next suggestion would be to just forget the room mic all together. A room mic is only good when you have a room worth hearing. Yours seems pretty boxy from what I can tell. I'd say record the guitars with just the close mics and add space with a good reverb plug-in instead. Or just leave them dry.

As far as not hearing the drums with the amp so loud, just turn your headphones up. :D

I like being in the room with loud amps, but if it's too much you could move the cab elsewhere and run the mics out to where the cab is.
 
I agree, the lead tone is definitely improved.

The rhythm sounds to me, complete garbage compared to how I want it sound. The palm mute part is tricky when you can't hear anything!

I'd really like to use the room mic as I've used them before with some success (I'm not really a stranger to recording, just never done it seriously by myself...and I really wish I'd paid more attention when I was doing it years ago) and I've gotten a half-decent room sound in this room but at lower volumes. So I'm having some trouble getting the mic placed just right at these volumes and didn't really have time to experiment much today. The room sound was complete garbage when I did this recording today. The room is the size of a 2-car garage (because it's above one) with a cathedral ceiling with wood paneling on the walls and ceiling plus a combination of carpet and wood flooring.

It's theoretically possible to set up my recording gear in a spare bedroom next to this large room, and bring the head in there with me. How long a speaker cable could I use to run from the head to the 4x12? I also have a snake laying around that is 50 feet and has four 1/4" and 16 XLR connections that I could use if needed.
 
You can run 50 ft of speaker cable easy.

Maybe get the room mic further away.

If you like the lower volume sound, then go with it. You don't need to reorder your whole life for a few decibels.

What's an example of a rhythm tone you want?
 
I think what I'm going to do then is move the recording gear into a spare bedroom and keep the cab where it is. Much easier to hear what is coming through the headphones without a Marshall roaring 10 feet from my head.

With that setup it'll be a lot easier for me to be able to move the cab and mikes around and experiment. The room is definitely too big for me to sound treat but I'll see what I can get out of it as is. It's not a box shape, it's more an L-shape with 6 walls so maybe that will give me some sweet spots to concentrate on. But yeah I think I need to move the condenser further back for sure, maybe get the 4x12 off of the floor as well.

Hmmm...that's hard to say because I like a lot of bands but wouldn't necessarily want to copy their tone. More like, amalgamate certain aspects into my own thing, But basically a snarly Marshall sound is what I prefer and I can't really seem to get that with close mic's alone.
 
Okay so I did do all of those things but honestly I think I am putting the cart before the horse, because I am having a lot of trouble getting a rhythm guitar sound I can live with, never mind one that I'm happy with. I threw some tracks down today of just rhythm over some bass and drums. What I'm wondering is, what can I do to make this sound less sucky and, well, wimpy? I had the gain way down and the EQ pretty much neutral at 12 o'clock on the amp. The room sound is crap but I'm still working on that...I moved everything but the cab and mikes into another room so it's a pain trying to run back into the room and move the room mic around then run back and record to see how that sounds, run back in and move again or mess with the polar pattern etc.

I isolated the tracks at the beginning...first guitar track is a MD421 on a Vintage 30 panned right with the gain about 3, second track is a SM57 on a Vintage 30 with the same gain setting panned right, third is a Rode K2 in the room with the gain about 5, forth is a SM57 on a G12T-75 with the gain about 5 panned left, fifth track is a MD421 on a G12T-75 with the gain at 5 panned right. Then I drop them in one by one in that order and keep them in for the chorus. Next verse I drop in only the Vintage 30's, only the G12T's, the Vintage 30's with the room mic, and the G12T's with the room mic, then all in again.

To me this sounds pretty wimpy and small...how can I get a better and bigger overall sound? Less tracks, even LESS gain? I'm stumped here.

https://soundcloud.com/robert-barry-458793257/song165wav
 
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I don't know what you're looking for but that sounds pretty good to me and way better than your previous effort. One thing you could do is simply make the guitars a little louder in the mix.

If anything, I'd suggest fewer combinations of mics and speakers. If you wanna layer tracks for effect and bigness, fine, but try layering another take with the same mic/speaker setup. It'll sound bigger without sounding much different. Do your normal rhythm track, and then for the second layer just drop the gain a hair and run through it again.
 
Yeah it does sound a little better than other attempts...dialing back the gain and layering it helped a lot. I guess layering heavily distorted tracks is kinda like hooking 4 distortion pedals together. Just mush.

I'll give that a whirl...I was always under the impression that you should use a few different guitars and amps while tracking rhythm because the differences in intonation etc. will make the tracks pop out in the mix better. But I'll try dialing back the gain on the same speakers. Honestly I don't like the sound of Vintage 30's close miked with this head anyways, at least not with the gain up. Thinking of maybe scoring a crusty old Valco tube combo off of eBay and cranking it, see what that would add to a mix as well.
 
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