Playing Live?!?!

S

sjaguar13

New member
I don't know where else to put this, so I'll put it here. I just joined a band and they have a show coming up. I don't know all the songs, so I won't be playing the show. I was practicing one night and decided to take a sucky tape recorder and record the song, so I can play along with it at home. I noticed the sound quality wasn't that great. Here's how it's set up. It's at a church with 2 steps going up to the stage, and then three stages going up to a really small stage. The drummer is at the small stage, is big enough just for the drums. The guitarist has a Marshall 4-12 half stack and the bassist has a Peavey 4-10 half stack. The guitarist is on the left and the bassist is on the right. The singer has 2 cabinets, 1-15 each, at each the two front cornors of the stage. Is there a better way to do this? We had the ideas of getting a mixer, and running more than one instrument out of the speakers. We run into the problem of the drummer not being able to hear all of us, and we can't hear the singer. Should we get more speakers?
 
There are lots of possible answers to this one - First, if your singer is really singing thru a pair of 15" speakers ONLY, without any horns or tweeters, then they must sound like they're singing with a pillow in their mouth. This would make any articulation in the vocals non-existent due to total lack of sibilance. Second, it's virtually impossible to get and keep a good mix of sound from several instruments/vocals when each has control of his/her own volume. The least that's needed is a small mixer that each instrument can be hooked into, and someone offstage to listen and balance things out. This also requires that the onstage loudness be kept to the least that works with the live drums and hearing each other. The rest of the needed level to mix correctly should be added to the "mains" speakers with the mixer/power amp system. This minimum level onstage approach is hard to learn for people who are used to blasting out with their 4-12 Marshalls, etc, so there would be a definite learning curve once the right gear is available. Next, any mixer you get should offer at least an EFX bus (for reverb processor, etc) and a Monitor or Cue bus output for running to a separate monitor amp and speakers. The least you should use here would be some "Hot Spot" type vocal monitors, especially if more than one of the band sings. A proper, separate monitor system lets the whole band hear without continually "turning up" to be heard over the other guys who just "turned up" - this can be vital for hearing "cues" in the song so all musicians can change to the next verse/chorus/ending, etc, at the same time -

The bass amp should be as close to and slightly behind the drummer as possible, so the drummer can hear more articulation and improve timing. The drummer and bass player are a team that better be together. The "Hot Spot" vocal monitors and a mixer with a Monitor/cue buss into a separate amp to the Hot Spots would cure the no vocal problem.

Also, a type and brand name of the recorder and tape you used would be much more helpful than the term, "sucky" - I've known people that would use that term to describe gear I'll never be able to afford... Steve
 
We were talking about using my PA speakers (2-15 and a horn each) and use his PA speakers as monitors. I say we get a mixer. Everyone in the band is poor (They owe $2,000 still for the Marshall and PA speakers), so I'll be buying it. I have no idea what I'm doing. I want something that doesn't suck, but something I can afford, say $1,000 or less. I don't know if you get Musican's Friend magazines, but on the cover of the new one is a mixer that's $629 off the list price making it $850. Here's a link:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=020529060746024093235150853691/search/g=home?q=631211D
I didn't see anything about an EFX bus. Is that good or do you recommend something else?
 
You might be going for a little bit of overkill with that board. You can probably find a smaller and less expensive mixing board that will do the job just fine. Since you're just getting started into recording and mixing you might want to hold off on the big purchase until you know what you are doing...
 
I agree with Blackburn. i own a Mackie 1202 vlz pro, and it seems to be a really good buy. I got it on e-bay for around $210. There is also the Mackie 1404 which is the same thing with an extra couple input's if you need them. Check those out, I think that for what you are doing right now they would be more than applicable for your situation. Good luck!

Matt
 
Could I record with that mixer, too? Is it going to be one of those things that is good for like a year, then once I learn how to use it, I find out that it isn't that great, and I need a better one?
 
Neither the mixer you were looking at or the mixer I suggested actually records. They just improve the recording process. And as far as I can tell through the use I have gotten out of the Makie and as well as many other peoples feedback, it will be a mixer you will use as long as you are into recording. It has very nice mic pre's on it that are almost as cool as the mixer itself. If you are not familiar with what a mic pre is, I am definantly not an expert on this, but a mic pre will boost your signal and fatten up the sound of whatever mic you are plugging into it. If you are only planning on plugging in 8 or 9 cords into the mixer, the one you were looking at is way to much, and will take months to figure out probably, I say probably cause I have never actually used that piece of equipment, so I don't know for sure.

Matt
 
You're getting some good advice here- forget Behringer or 8-bus anything for either of the applications you mentioned. For the money, Mackie will hold up better and sound better than anything else in its price range. The 1202 is, IMO, a notch too low for recording or live use. I would never buy a mixer for anything but "set and forget" applications that uses rotary knobs for level setting. The 1402 VLZ gets around that for a little more money, and one of the two aux sends can be switched pre or post, meaning it comes out of the mixer either before or after the level faders for each channel. For a monitor mix you need pre-fader signal, so you can change the main mix without changing the monitor feed. For effects, you need a send that changes if you change a channel fader, so you don't end up with full reverb on a signal you just faded down or out.

Yes, the 1402 can be used for recording - add at least $2000 to the price if you want to do it (noticeably) better. Here again, there are two main reasons for moving up from the 1202, not including better routing capabilities - Faders instead of knobs. Picture trying to mix a song from either tape or DAW, with multiple inputs to the mixer, and you need to raise the levels of two stereo channels while simultaneously lowering the main out so your record level for the mix remains constant (listening to the stereo out, of course) - With faders, you grab all 4 channel faders with your left hand, fingers above and heel of hand + thumb below, and slowly push all four faders up while listening/looking at output meters and simultaneously lowering the main stereo out faders with your right hand - Care to try that with knobs? Care to look at the board for 1/2 second and tell me what all your levels are set at? Didn't think so...

Anyway, here's a link if you haven't already looked - you can put the extra $300 toward vocal monitors or power amps.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...5150853691/search/g=live/detail/base_id/39735

Another option, more for live than recording - bang-for-buck, if you already have (or need two) power amps to run separate monitor and main systems, is a "powered" mixer. Some sound crappy because the added drain on the power supply affects the mix quality, but I've had good luck in the past with Yamaha powered mixers. The EMX-3000 would give you effects plus an extra stereo power amp, which in a pinch could be used as two mono amps, one for mains and one for monitors. Routing is flexible enough to patch things where you need them, and it's all in one box. This wouldn't likely be quite as clean for recording, but still usable. Powered mixers are normally used when the mixer is either on or close to the stage, since long speaker cable runs are best avoided for several reasons. Here is a link to the Yamaha - if I were doing this on a tight budget, I'd look at this option pretty close...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...5150853691/search/g=live/detail/base_id/51893

I'm glad you have horns in those 15" cabs, had me worried for a while... Steve
 
So lets say I buy the 1402 to play live (June 7). Is everybody coming out of every speaker or is it going to be everbody out of their own speakers, but controlled from the mixer?
 
The answer is somewhere in between. You would connect all onstage mics and instrument amps, probably kick and snare mics on drums (unless you're playing for a Bingo party and have towels over the drums by request) - connect all these inputs into the channel inputs on the board, connect the stereo mains (or just one channel if going Mono) into the mains power amp and speakers. Connect the aux bus out to the monitor amp and speakers, and whatever effects box you may have to the other aux bus (FX should be post-fader, monitor should be pre-fader) This setup lets you adjust the amount of each input that will go to the monitor amp/speakers using the aux send control on each channel, then optimise the level to the monitor amp with the aux master control. FX would be set up similarly. Then you adjust the faders for each input so you have a balanced sound at the main speakers (not too much or too little of any one input) The FX sends on the individual channels would control how much reverb that channel gets, and the master control for that bus optimises the level into your FX box, which should be set to 100% "wet" in the case of echo or reverb.

In this setup, the faders will control how much of each input goes to the main speakers, the aux sends will control how much of each input goes to the monitor speakers, the FX sends will control how much of each input goes to the FX, or reverb, box - and the overall levels will be set with the aux masters and Stereo master faders.

If you get a Mackie board, their manuals usually have a good starting point tutorial complete with typical hook-up examples... Steve
 
There's definitely some great advice for you in this thread.

One more quick note ....if you're playing in a church, the only effects you're going to want to use is EQ and (possibly) compression. Any type of reverb or chorus is going to sound like mud.

Churches have typically horrible acoustics for bands and you're going to have more natural reverb than you want anyway, and it's usually pretty challenging to get a good sound. EQ is the key to make sure the vocals cut through.
 
Sean makes a good point here - I've seen a small handful of churches that actually sounded good, but not many. The one good thing about playing in most churches is this: if you're late for another gig, you can just play the first verse/chorus, and then you can leave and the room will play the rest of the song FOR you, over, and over, and over... Steve
 
Good news (I think), I was talking to the singer about what you guys said (everyone in the band isn't computer literate). I told him we need a mixer to make it sound better. He stands up on this bench in the back of the room, jumps up and catches the balcony and pulls himself up. Then, he unlocked the door to the steps because I wasn't about to do that. I get up there and he pulls back this black sheet thing and there is a huge mixer sitting right there on the table. I was like, sweet can we use that. He said yeah, but he doesn't know how it works. His brother might know, but right now, he's in jail. We might start playing with it.

The church doesn't sound too bad. There is a balcany thing (where the mixer is) in the back and there is also lights and stuff. The walls have PA speakers on them. It looks like the room is made for some kind of band or something.
 
First, I can see why the singer's bro is in jail - where I come from, "getting around" locked doors is called Breaking and Entering", sounds like it runs in the family :=) Seriously, the first thing I would do is ask the church leader(s) about using their PA system. Then, this means that there probably is already wiring to the stage for Mic cables to plug into, and if there are speakers there are likely power amps to run them. Hopefully the church has the manual for their mixer, so you can learn more about it. There may even be a "sound man" who usually runs the board; if so, there's a source of info you don't want to irritate. You'll still need an education, but maybe it won't cost near as much as having to buy all the stuff yourself. I would seriously recommend ASKING before you go any farther, or you might end up needing another gig as well as equipment... Steve
 
I agree with Knightfly. Most Church's will be glad to help you out by letting you use there equipment, IF you ask first. If it is cool to use it, try and figure out the make and model number (sound like I am talking about a vehicle or something) and get back on here and maybe we can help you out.

Matt
 
Alright, the mixer is a Fender Professional Mixer 3208...know anything about it? I don't. It looks old. It has 8 intrusions (I think that's what they are called), those are inputs...right? The biggest question I have is how do I do the output? What speakers is what going to and how do I set that up. I thinking you are going to need some more info, so tell me what you need to know to answer that question.
 
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