Patch bay for idiots help needed

[miroslav]

No one is going to die from a balanced power UNIT!

Exactly.

K. But in the real world, we create redundant connections between the chassis grounds of our devices all the time, and there are a number of reasons that this might cause noise - at least some of which don't really have anything to do with how "clean" your power is.

Yes, true...but I think one of the side-benefits of going with the balanced power unit, at least in my own setup, is the fact that everything comes back to the singular power distribution point, which creates the basic "star" grounding scheme by default.
Now that isn't necessarily 100% foolproof...there's a lot to do with how each devices deals with chassis ground, signal ground and earth ground...but like most studio solutions, be it power or acoustics, etc...it's a series of steps that are often needed, though at this point, that way I've staged the power distribution and with the addition of the balanced power...the hum/noise/loops issues are their most minimal ever.

Before that...I've been down the other roads too in the past.
Running individual ground lines from devices back to a single point...running a main ground line out of the building to a buried copper spike. Even having to jump chassis grounds between a couple of units in order to kill the hum of one.
I've isolated the patchbays from the rack rails with electrical tape and nylon washers, then run ground lines from the bays. Even isolated each piece of audio gear from the rack rails and their chassis from the other racked gear....
...I mean some serious exorcism shit......in an effort to lower the noise and remove ground loops...often just 1-2, but they would be enough to dirty up the whole rig if I needed to use that particular gear.

TBH, I think the first good step in this studio was the running of dedicated power from the main house box, on it's own set of 20A breakers, on the same leg. Back in the past, I was fighting "this old house" electrical weirdness from the git-go.

So...I think if you deal with it from the start, at every step...it will minimize and even eliminate any issues at the bays.
Of course, the whole splitting the signal thing can change that.
I've got for sets of "mult" groups on one of my bays, each with 4 splits, which lets me take any piece of gear and split it to anything else if needed...as opposed to "pre-splitting" a piece of gear permanently on a bay.
That way it minimizes the potential, but still leaves room for plenty of options when needed....and then if some noise pops up, you deal with it.

 

[Ponder5]

Was sitting here in the bathtub wondering if some toast would go over real well right now. I dunno. That stupid thing looks like it's gonna tip over and make a mess on the floor AGAIN. Maybe not.

Wild stuff in this thread about patch bays. But it didn't take long for the drama of lethality to raise its head.

I've lifted ground on a lot of gear and never had the slightest problem. Of course, some of my gear is from days gone by where there were no grounds. Maybe all those people are dead.

Having peered into my breaker box, I realize that the entire system is star grounded with ALL of the neutrals tied to the same physical bar. Been in a house or two where the grounds were, too. They perhaps hadn't been chided sufficiently by internet people. No one died. Everything worked fine, including the audio gear.

There's a lot of voodoo and superstition involved in AC power in the studio. Funny thing: there's not any involved in AC power from the substation to the outlet. It's all straight ahead, well understood, with no problems. It's only after it gets into a studio where strange problems, and equally strange solutions, arise.

Ponder5

 

[miroslav]

Funny thing: there's not any involved in AC power from the substation to the outlet. It's all straight ahead, well understood, with no problems. It's only after it gets into a studio where strange problems, and equally strange solutions, arise.

True......though the power company is focused on simply providing power.
They're not dealing with or worrying about the quality of audio signals too....they're just providing the power.
Hum doesn't bother the refrigerator (it makes its own hum ) or the air-conditioner, or that toaster....

 

[ecc83]

" Funny thing: there's not any involved in AC power from the substation to the outlet. It's all straight ahead, well understood, with no problems."

That ^ is a bit parochial. There are plenty of places in the world where the power company has ALL SORTS of problems! People hooking into overhead lines (ours are almost all armour in the road). People overloading systems and making ad hoc earths to 'floating' supplies (yes, no earth reference. If mains is not 'above' earth you cannot get a shock from either pin to earth nor from a live case fault) .

I suppose I am a bit OCD about electrical safety but in UK the mains system is very (small c) conservative in its cable ratings and who it allows to work on supplies and wiring. The fact of twice the voltage makes the juice about four times as deadly (skin resistance is very non-linear, in the BAD direction!) Also it was my job. Had I given wrong advice or done a bad job I could, in the limit be jailed. Retired now but cannot give bad advice on forums nor let such go unchallenged. And! I MAY have read it wrongly but just in case...DO NOT LIFT ANY MAINS SAFETY EARTHS..EVER!

Dave.

 

[Ponder5]

" Funny thing: there's not any involved in AC power from the substation to the outlet. It's all straight ahead, well understood, with no problems."

That ^ is a bit parochial..DO NOT LIFT ANY MAINS SAFETY EARTHS..EVER!

Right back atcha, big guy. That's a bit parochial.

But rather than argue across the pond, nor even compare resumes or CVs, perhaps a thought:

If you only do what they tell you to do, you'll only get what they allow you to get.
BUT
If you learn more than they allow, you'll do more than they allow.

SO
You believe as you will and if you believe you'll go straight to jail for not believing it loud enough and strong enough, then I support your declaring so. Good for you. Rah-rah. You tell 'em.

I'll continue to do as I've been doing. I'm on my third studio I've built in as many cities. There's 48 outlets in my studio and not one of them is wired with a ground. Video, audio, digital, analog, and even an old Hammond all live together in peace. No hums. No problems. No smoldering corpses. No showers of sparks. Nothing but good clean hum-free sound, the thought of which makes journeymen electricians itch all over.

Now I need to find a good hair dryer. The cheap ones have bearings that rust right up after just one or two showers. Can you believe it? It's so hard to find good quality these days.


Ponder5

 

[zepfan59]

I use a mixer for that. That way I have xlr and 1/4. All of my instrument channels are already plugged in. I just bring up the channel I'm using.

 

[ecc83]

Right back atcha, big guy. That's a bit parochial.

But rather than argue across the pond, nor even compare resumes or CVs, perhaps a thought:

If you only do what they tell you to do, you'll only get what they allow you to get.
BUT
If you learn more than they allow, you'll do more than they allow.

SO
You believe as you will and if you believe you'll go straight to jail for not believing it loud enough and strong enough, then I support your declaring so. Good for you. Rah-rah. You tell 'em.

I'll continue to do as I've been doing. I'm on my third studio I've built in as many cities. There's 48 outlets in my studio and not one of them is wired with a ground. Video, audio, digital, analog, and even an old Hammond all live together in peace. No hums. No problems. No smoldering corpses. No showers of sparks. Nothing but good clean hum-free sound, the thought of which makes journeymen electricians itch all over.

Now I need to find a good hair dryer. The cheap ones have bearings that rust right up after just one or two showers. Can you believe it? It's so hard to find good quality these days.


Ponder5

Arcane poetry aside "not one with a ground" That is not balanced mains as I understand it? That is an earth free, floating mains. We had that decades ago in our TV workshop. Used a big,fkoff marine transformer.