Not a question from a newbie but about newbies in general.

DAS19

New member
Hey, I recently got asked to record a distant friends band. they are ska band and they are just horrible. they just arent a tight band. now I still figured with a metronome I can nget it to soudn decent. but what im starting to realize is that you need to be good at keeping time or else its gonna sound like an 8th grade band.

sooo at a professional studio what do you do if you get a band like this. is there no possible way to get them to sound good?
 
People should practice before they even think about recording.

I would suggest recording them with just a room mic and let them hear how they sound. Their timing, pitch, etc. Then tell them to be realistic about their expectations.
 
thats the thing they dont have high expectations. im wasting my time they arent paying me good.
 
Good question

I've had this situation before as well...
Here's a scenario:

- I had an individual that was in the same boat...
He meant well / He wanted to do good / But just 'didn't have it'...
The big thing was he kept asking my opinion...
I told him if he wanted me to I would be perfectly straight with him in the takes he did for one hour... He agreed and we started working...
After NINETY minutes / He was so tired of me saying "Wrong - do it again"...
" out of tune - do it again " / "Timing is off - do it again" That we sat down and had a long talk about what I thought of his capability... I wasn't mean - But I explained that perhaps he should look to some formal training and some road work before he came back again... He agreed...
Six months later he came back - HOLY cow! He sounded great... He'd done his work and came out better...

I guess what I'm saying is: Be honest with them and say " I'm sorry guys but this just isn't working... You guys aren't coming in prepared and I am not getting any good audio from your work..." If you're just looking for a way to hear yourselves, spend a little money and get a few mics and a recorder and go for it... When you're serious about wanting to record, Give me a call and we'll talk before I come in to see if there's improvement...

Not sure if this will help... But, if you're feeling jipped and you've got nothing to show for your work - cut em loose...
 
im no pro engineer, so i cant comment in that regard, but as someone that tries very hard and takes pride in trying my best to make good personal recordings i just cant understand how someone would not take themselves at least seriously enough to turn out a good product. its a colossal waste of time and money to go through the recording process and not come out with something decent. and if you simply suck, theres not enough recording/mixing trickery in the world that will make you sound good. it all starts with the guys playing the instruments. if that fundamental piece of the puzzle is out of whack, the whole thing will be too. i just dont get it. i dont even think about hitting 'record' until i know exactly what im going to do. thats just me.
 
I make "good" (let's call them "commercially acceptable") sounding recordings from "crap" gear all the time.

No, not at my place --- I still do quite a bit of live work and it turns into live tracking more often than I'd like to admit. But it's always with seasoned professionals - People who have attained a mastery of their core sounds.

With great core sounds, the challenge is to stay out of the way and let it happen. You don't have problems like "the bass is taking over" - You have problems like "I wonder if I should turn it down or not" - Because when you turn it down, it still sounds great. Turn it up, still great. Bass, guitar, hi-hat, whatever. You skip over the "getting everything to sit right" stage (which takes 90% of the time) to the tweaking stage.

Tweak away, you have 90% more time now.

Get a band in that doesn't have a handle on their own sound, you've got problems at the heart of the project. Combine that with an engineer that doesn't know how to set levels ("hot as you can without clipping") and you've got problems with the brain.

Soon, you've got a palpatating, brainless blob thrashing about, messing up the carpets and ruining the curtains. It just doesn't work.
 
okay, i'm going to come from the other side of the fence....and this is all my opinion

if you're truely a professional and this is your livelihood....fuck 'em.
They can sound like crap all the want in my opinion. You have to remember this is a business and you have a job to do. If they are paying you to be a producer and ask you for your opinion, then fine...give it to them. If they are paying you to record them and it's still really really bad and they don't seem to hear it, suggest things ONCE and then move on with it. After doing jobs over and over again you start to see that it's just like any job in that there is a customer relations aspect to it all and at times "the client is always right."
I know it sucks to think that...and you wish it could be an art form that you help them mold, but a lot of people do not want to hear it. They just want you to do your "magic" and make them sound good. If it takes autotune, then use it. If it takes beat detective, then do it.
I hear so many people say "just tell them they suck" or "refuse to record them"...but when you do that, you're pretty much inviting them to call your competitor.
You learn fast how to bullshit. When they say "how does that sound?"....you say something like "I think that might work" or "I don't know, I kinda like the previous take better, but what do you think? Do you like it?"...put the decision on their shoulders. If they like it, then move on. They want to feel like you've given input as the expert, but they also don't want to feel like the idiot in the room. And especially never ridicule talent in front of other people. In other words, don't tell the singer he's out of tune in front of the rest of the band mates. It'd be like me coming in and saying your mix sounds like shit in front of your peers/friends.

I've talked with many collegues about this and most of them agree (actually pretty much all of them do)...the final question at the end of the day is "is the client happy?" If they are, great! Shake their hand, hand them their CD, and send them the bill. Because you're job as a recording or mixing engineer is to capture the sound of the band as truthfully as possible. And if the sound of the band is off rhythm, then so be it. Mess with "beat detective" programs if you think it will help, but do it behind the curtains....the most embarassing thing for an artist to see is the engineer correcting their rhythm or pitch. But a lot times the band is so used to their playing off beat they don't really notice it, so they think it's fine when the CD is finally cut.

Again, just my opinion.
 
Riverdog has an excellent point.
I worked in a band years ago with a terrible guitarist. He was told by the band leader that if he wanted to play in the band he'd need to go away & come back when he had his chops.
12 months later HE DID.
Now he wasn't told as nicely as Riverdog seems to have done it BUT he had enough desire & PRIDE to a) want to be able to play well & b) shove his chops up the band leader's rectal passage.
Oh, & he came back with 2 good songs too.
Do the room recording, sit them day & have them critique it. THEN tell em you'd love to work with them when they're ready.
 
bennychico, I understand where you are coming from but like most artists they will blame the studio if it comes out like crap.

I would rather have them recommend me to their freinds bands.

Tell them straight, their timing is a little dodgey and it is your personal opinion they should work on time keeping before they commit all that money to recording.
 
theclashrock said:
bennychico, I understand where you are coming from but like most artists they will blame the studio if it comes out like crap.

that's the thing though...they will be there with you in the session and should notice it. When they walk out the door after recording they should be happy with their performance, otherwise they wouldn't be leaving. If they actually come back and say "why is my rhythm off"....then you break it to them easy. Many people don't notice they have bad rhythm, pitch, or intonation. Same reason why bad dancers still dance and terrible singers in church belt it out as loud as they can...they think they're good. This is one of the reasons why producers are hired to oversee the band's studio time.
Do you think a camera operator or sound guy making a really shitty ass movie is going to tell the director/writer "I'm sorry, your directing and writing is terrible...you really need to go work on it before you waste your money hiring me to do your movie." If that happened, he'd be fired and someone else put in his place.

but then again, I guess I come from a different breed ;)
 
Within this forum in other places there are references to the importance of learning your craft, and in particular, training your ears, so that you have a better chance of producing good quality results. When you are new to recording, you may miss out on hearing things that the more seasoned engineer can pick out.

I think the same applies when you are starting off in a band: you get together, play songs, and, from your perspective of innocence and inexperience, think it sounds great. Someone else may have a contrary view: they might notice timing changes, pitch problems, poor tuning, overplaying, sloppy playing, cluttered arrangements and so on.

When you, as a band, record this stuff, it is highly likely that you will still think its good. Firstly because you won't necessarily know that it could sound better, but secondly, because you are not hearing what's there, you are hearing what you want to hear.

I've done this many times myself; recorded a track and thought 'wow, that's sounding great', but a couple of weeks (maybe months) later you listen and think 'how on earth did I think that was acceptable?'

This makes life for you as an engineer difficult, because even if you diplomatically and constructively point to various things that could improve, the client's perceptions and their 'subconcious acoustic refining' may be a barrier to their hearing what you are trying to say.
 
I'm no professional, but I record alot of local bands. I've recorded some bands that really needed some work. I always just let them listen back to their playing and kept the comments to a minimum. I'll just say, "what do you think of that?" If they give me a puzzled look, I'll zero in and play some specific parts or sections for them and try to get them to realize the problems. I might have to really point them out for people who just can't hear it. That's where the real problem is, the people who can't hear their mistakes or their terrible timing. I basically just record metal bands too so I am even more plagued with crappy musicians. :p

Unfortunately, I've also recorded people who didn't respond to any of this and I ended up doing drastic surgery on tracks that never should have seen the light of day just to make them listenable. I did that because I was afraid to put out a recording that sounded awful and I didn't want to make enemies with the band either. I don't know what to do in situations like that. I think my only other option would have been to be a jerk to the band and totally turn them away (at least they would have seen it as me being a jerk). Nowadays I'll definitely check out a band pretty thoroughly before I decide whether or not I can do anything for them. I don't like to get in situations like that.
 
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