Need advice for a newbie at computer recording - using a PC

C

Charles_I

New member
The last time I did any home recording was using my 4-track cassette tape porta-studio almost 20 years ago. I'm not interested in spending the money on a professional recording setup. I just want to do some amateur stuff on my own with a very basic setup. The only recording software I have at the moment is Audition 3.0.

What I'm looking for is a decent sounding drum software program and perhaps an electronic keyboard (unless there is a decent sounding synth software package as well, but if the MIDI sound is as dippy as it used to be forget it. I'm not interested in keyboard sounds that go "doink" "doink" or make weird compressed swishy noises :-) A friend of mine suggested M-AUDIO Oxygen and WaveDNA's Liquid Rythm. I don't know if Liquid Rythm is overkill for my needs and looking at their website they mention you also need something called Ableton 9 (they don't explain what that is) and I see all kinds of extra plugins which I'm sure are all at an additional cost.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Charles
 
Hi Charles! Welcome to the addicting and exciting world of home audio.

I guess I should start with the basics:

Ableton Live is a program that is rapidly becoming one of the more popular software options for recording, producing, and playing back music on a computer. It is split roughly in half between the classic 'timeline view' for audio software and a grid of cells, with each cell able to contain anything from a single drum hit to an entire song.

These can be 'mapped'(have each cell assigned to a button) to controllers, so you can press a button and have one of these music files play back instantly and completely in-sync with the rest of the music. One of the cooler features of Ableton is that it has powerful beat-matching features, so you don't have to worry so much about when you start the file or whether it's properly beat-matched to the rest of your audio. It also allows you to record audio just as you would in Audition, and then apply realtime effects or processing to the recorded audio.

There are many options that you can choose for a drum software. Probably the most popular is Maschine by Native Instruments. This actually comes with a pad controller, which they promote as being able to control 99% of the software without having to touch a mouse or keyboard. The standard version is around $600 and the bigger 'Studio' version is around $1200 if I remember correctly.

This controller and software is easily the fastest I have ever used to create beats for my music. It comes with many gigabytes of sound content which you can splice together, sample, effect, and sequence into your own beats. It also has many premade 'kits' so you can pick a good starting place to quickly tap out your own beats.

I have not yet worked with WaveDNA, but it seems incredibly complex for simply creating a beat. We provided them some of our controllers for them to test with their software, and I don't think they were able to make them work together.

The M-Audio Oxygen line is a very well-established inexpensive line of keyboards which plug in via USB and send MIDI to software on a computer(no actual keyboard audio output without a PC). I actually use the M-Audio Radium49 at home(one model up from the Oxygens) and after >10 years it's still working fine. It's very plasticy and not the most durable thing, but if it's just going to sit in a studio and not go on the road that should be ok.

You mention you're somewhat averse to the 'dippy' generic MIDI sounds: Fortunately, with software, this isn't an issue. Most instruments are very rich sounding, and don't sound like a 1980s Casio preset unless you want them to. To this end, Maschine also has excellent sampled synthesizer sounds that are included with it, and can be played with either the pad controller or another keyboard.

Aside from well-known synthesizer software like Maschine or Massive, you can find a *huge* array of free and paid instrument plugins that will work within Ableton or most other DAW(Digital Audio Workstation) programs. There's a wonderful directory provided by a site called KVR Audio which allows you to search by price, operating system, workstation software, and type of synthesizer or effect. I also personally love my Arturia V-Collection synths, which are some extremely high-quality classic synthesizers in simulated software form.

I know that's a wall of text, but it's a good start! I hope it helps, and shout if you have any specific questions.

-Rob
 
Thanks Rob for the speedy and detailed reply. I'll digest this (slowly) and I'm sure I'll be back with more questions :-)

Charles
 
I think Rob did a god job, but let's back up and take a breath. I use Ableton and I love it. But, before I would go and recommend it to anyone, I would ask them what it they want to do?

Ableton is very robust, but it is for Live and recording and has a strange workflow. Once you get it, not a problem, but there are characteristics that, unless you are going for a Live application, there are other options.

First, the DAW - where you record/mix and finalize your songs. There a numerous DAWs out there, Ableton being one, Protools, Reaper, Sonar, Audition and a whole host of others. These DAWs usually host VSTs (effects such as EQs, compression, etc.) and VSTi (Virtual instruments, Drums, piano, synthesizer sounds, etc.)

For drums, it is pretty easy from a DAW, there are numerous programs that can work within a host that will either utilize MIDI files or allow you to record the MIDI so you can get the drums.

But before you go too deep into all of this, let's walk through and start out with the type of the music you're going to play, are you going to go out and play and use the software (Ableton and a controller works well in this area). So give us a bit more information and we can start to guide you through this techno babble and help you decide what you need for your goals.
 
Charles.
Sounds like me about 12 months ago. Make sure you stick with this forum. They know and help.
However, you're first post is what interests me. No matter what you do, you can't do it super cheap. This home recording stuff grabs you like cigarettes or grog.
Here's what happened to me.
I already had a expensive keyboard and wanted to record from that. Same sort of thing as you have. Just different instrument. That led me to research and more research.
Finally I found presonus audiobox usb that came with DAW, Mic and headphones. Good deal.
Then a good soldering iron and learn to solder.Why? theres so many leads and some are not good quality even tho expensive.
I can tell you that even after all this time,I am nowhere near knowing very much. The drug has taken hold.
Your setup will be much simpler so I agree with other repliers. Read read read.
baz
 
Hi Charles,
Several things cause me to think in your post.
You have Audition 3. We have our very own A A guru here in Bobbsy! I have AA 1.5 (story to that if anyone wants to know) had it for years and my son made good use of it. Big problem, no MIDI.

However you are interested in both MIDI and an AI? Makes sense then to look for an AI that gives you a starter with what is arguably the best DAW for MIDI, Cubase. This comes with the Steinberg interfaces naturally but also with the very excellent Native Instruments KA6. (also Tascams?)

The Cubase they give you is a "lite" version but is quite powerful enough for some serious work and you get a discount for an upgrade to the full fat version.

"Doink"?? Ok, well, if you want a good piano sound get the demo of Modartt Pianoteq and for drums BFD Eco is pretty good value.

Dave.
 
Sorry, just to be clear, I wasn't necessarily recommending Ableton as a starting DAW. It's what I use, and I work alongside an Ableton Certified Trainer so I see all kinds of people who use it. It can be a complex program, and with enough windows open you can feel like you're looking at a space shuttle cockpit.

I previously worked for Sony on the Acid Pro/Vegas/Sound Forge software, and at that point I used those programs to make my tunes. I still use Sound Forge for sample editing, but I use Ableton instead of Acid because of its sample warping abilities. They both work equally well, it's just a matter of what I'm used to at the moment. I have used ProTools quite a bit as well, and while people keep telling me it's great, I really didn't like it and dread every time I have to open it.:facepalm:

For your needs, you should try as many DAW demos as you'd like to find whatever feels comfortable and easy for you to use.

Cheers,
Rob
 
Boy you guys love to provide lots of reading material :) Obviously I need to get more specific because I can see all sorts of suggestions going off in all directions. So this is what I want to do.

I have no plans to play live or record live. I doubt that will ever change but if for some crazy reason I change my mind (impossible to imagine) I would have no problem upgrading what I have. So let's start with NO live recording.

I also don't want to build a recording studio in my house. Thus the comment about "cheap" which was meant to be relative - I'm not spending $10k or $1000k for a home studio. My small office room (bedroom size) at my home is good enough. These will be personal projects that may never go any farther than stuff to give to my family, or use as background for a personal video for a website or something. I don't fancy a career of uploading to YouTube either at this point.

What I have is a Precision Bass, (I have a practice preamp with a headphone output - I have to check and see if it has a line out as well - I haven't used it in years), an acoustic guitar, and a real acoustic upright piano. I have a very good vocal mic left over from my band days and a couple of crappy ones as well.

I'm going to be building my own PC over the next few months (sorry I'm not a MAC guy which I agree is better quality - no argument there - but I'm not going to buy a MAC just for this purpose). So the PC will have Windows 7 (I hate Windows 8) an up-to-date motherboard and enough RAM - plus a decent sound card.

Basically all I want to do is plug whatever I want into the PC and record it a track at a time, using either mics or a direct line in. And added to that will be some drumming with software. I'm not a drummer so really, all I need is a drum machine with a bunch of preset or buildable rythms and a selection of fills.

As far as MIDI goes, I didn't say I LIKE or want MIDI. I just said it used to be horrible (Rob's reference to Casio made me cringe and was exactly the kind of sound I DON'T want.) But I realise MIDI has come a long way so if it's suited to the sounds I want and the quality is realistic enough I'm happy to use it.

In a keyboard, having played a real piano for years, I'd like something that sounds real - or maybe even just mic the real one but I know it's quite difficult to do that and get a balanced sound. The other reason I'm considering a keyboard is to get one with a reasonable sounding synth to add strings or other instruments if I want. Maybe this should be totally separate from a keyboard/piano. What do you recommend?

That should hopefully narrow down the suggestions. I realise there's a huge variety of stuff out there and since I've never done this before I have no idea what to buy for this purpose.

Thanks
Charles
 
Morning (here!) Charles,

Glad you are going for Win 7 (64 bits of course) but don't FCS puff up the mac boys! They are insufferable enough as it is!

You mentioned a home build and a "decent soundcard"? If by this you mean an internal PCI (or PCIe but there is a very limited, affordable selection) card then you will not go wrong with an M-Audio 2496 but they are becoming rare. Even rarer but better is the M-A AP 192 but also a lot more money. The 2496 will give you 2 line inputs and outputs, MIDI and S/PDIF* very good sound quality and the lowest latency you are likely to get with any setup. The downside is that you have no mic inputs nor control of in/out levels.

These two issues are solved by a small mixer and you are really spoilt for choice here! You can spend $50 on a wee Behringer with two mic inputs and still make remarkably good recordings. I would however urge you to lift your sights a bit and suggest something like the Allen & Heath ZED10. Four mic amps, instrument inputs and a vastly more versatile bit of kit altogether.

Some will say "mixer> PCI card" is an Old Hat way of working and you should go for an external interface. Personally I have and have used both and they each have their strengths and drawbacks, you can have both on the same PC anyway. There is a great stickie about AIs (but get the KA6 if you really want one!).

MIDI. IMHO no home studio is complete unless you have some form of MIDI interface!
You have alluded to a "drum machine" and a "midi keyboard"? These things will be all the more flexible if you have a MIDI interface.
MIDI "sounds" are generated by software and much of it is now bloody good! I bet most of what we hear on telly (certainly ALL ad music!) is MIDI generated. Do try Pianoteq, the demo will run on any PC and you can use cans on a laptop e.g. How "robotic" MIDI sounds is of course in the hands of the performer!
Drums? Many peeps swear by "Eze-Drummer" . Personally I swore at it when I saw the amount of crap the demo left in my Registry! BFD is good but all the major DAW softwares, Cubase, Sonar etc have VSTi sounds in them.

*Handy for the connection of digital sources. CD/DVD player, some synths, Minidisc and perhaps a more upmarket mic pre amp in the future such as the Audient Mico which has built in and excellent digital converters.

Rock on Chas'

Dave.
 
I think what you need is a simple 2 channel USB interface (Focusrite, Steinberg, Native Instruments, Roland, etc.) and Reaper (DAW software with free, unlimited trial). Get a midi keyboard (mine uses USB, lots of interfaces have proper midi ports) and then some free software (Kontakt Player, Sampletank free, Piano One) and see how you get on with it. From there, work out if you want/need to buy better sample libraries for piano/drums and synths to match your needs. The audio interface will provide preamps and conversion for recording bass (DI or miced amp) and vocals.

For drums, I use Addictive Drums, Abbey Road drums (part of native instruments Komplete suite) and have just bought Steven Slate 4. There are lots of options and they all include midi loops/grooves you can drag and drop into your project. There are free/trial versions of various programs available to try out.
 
The last two posts pretty much sum up what would be your best options. Add some monitors for mixing and some room treatments and you will be cranking out some tunes in no time.
 
Loved the comments about the MAC goomies.

By decent soundcard I was thinking of something like one of the higher end SoundBlaster cards (which I have) but that ZED-10 looks pretty awesome. I'm just wondering whenever I see these USB connected things, I thought USB is one of the worst ways to transfer data (at least there's USB 3.0 now). I presume it works OK if they sell them, but is there a significant degradation using USB as opposed to Firewire (if they even exist, haven't checked all the recommendations yet)?

Of course I will be buying a 64-bit Windows 7.

Thanks for the sending more research for me ;-)

Charles
 
Charles_I said:
Loved the comments about the MAC goomies.

By decent soundcard I was thinking of something like one of the higher end SoundBlaster cards (which I have) but that ZED-10 looks pretty awesome. I'm just wondering whenever I see these USB connected things, I thought USB is one of the worst ways to transfer data (at least there's USB 3.0 now). I presume it works OK if they sell them, but is there a significant degradation using USB as opposed to Firewire (if they even exist, haven't checked all the recommendations yet)?

Of course I will be buying a 64-bit Windows 7.

Thanks for the sending more research for me ;-)

Charles
Click to expand...

I just tracked 14 tracks using a Tascam 1800, USB 2.0 on a low grade lap top. I had no drops, no issues. Maybe if you were doing HD Video then USB 3.0 or Firewire/Thunderbolt may be a better route, couldn't say. But for audio, USB 2.0 seems to work for majority of people.
 
Charles_I said:
Loved the comments about the MAC goomies.

By decent soundcard I was thinking of something like one of the higher end SoundBlaster cards (which I have) but that ZED-10 looks pretty awesome. I'm just wondering whenever I see these USB connected things, I thought USB is one of the worst ways to transfer data (at least there's USB 3.0 now). I presume it works OK if they sell them, but is there a significant degradation using USB as opposed to Firewire (if they even exist, haven't checked all the recommendations yet)?

Of course I will be buying a 64-bit Windows 7.

Thanks for the sending more research for me ;-)

Charles
Click to expand...

USB is perfectly suitable for audio work. There is no intrinsic difference between USB and Firewire. There is no 'significant degradation'. What may have an impact is the quality of the converters.

I you get an interface, then you don't need an internal Soundblaster. The interface is effectively the soundcard.
 
Charles_I said:
Loved the comments about the MAC goomies.

By decent soundcard I was thinking of something like one of the higher end SoundBlaster cards (which I have) but that ZED-10 looks pretty awesome. I'm just wondering whenever I see these USB connected things, I thought USB is one of the worst ways to transfer data (at least there's USB 3.0 now). I presume it works OK if they sell them, but is there a significant degradation using USB as opposed to Firewire (if they even exist, haven't checked all the recommendations yet)?

Of course I will be buying a 64-bit Windows 7.

Thanks for the sending more research for me ;-)

Charles
Click to expand...

Others have got you up to speed on "modern" USB audio (was abit of a hassle about 5-6 years ago) so I shall leave that.

Just to be clear about the ZED10. I was not suggesting the USB version* but just the mixer itself driving a GOOD soundcard (S Bs are NOT good for serious recording, trust "us" on this). Such a combination would give you a very flexible setup with very low latency (zero via the mixer) and more inputs than you would get from most AIs for about the same outlay.

*That said I have the USB version and it is the best 16bit USB audio device I have ever come across, well capable of recording the Open Mic night down at the Mucky Duck. Just chuck ,mixer, mics and laptop in the car and you are good to go.

Dave.
 
...just the mixer itself driving a GOOD soundcard...
Click to expand...
So, if S Bs are not good, what is a good sound card? And I only see USB as an output for ZED10 anyway (other than stereo monitor outs). But if I'm not recording live, is there any point having an external mixer (unless I'm recoring live piano), why not just use a mixer/EQ in the software? If there aren't any sound cards that have inputs other than those small stero pin sizes jacks I can see why the only alternative is USB.
 
Charles_I said:
So, if S Bs are not good, what is a good sound card?
Click to expand...

There are high end soundcards out there but the vast majority of home recording audio interfaces are USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt.
While high quality sound cards do exist, 'soundcard' usually means cheap and useless for recording. Anything from creative falls into this category.

Charles_I said:
But if I'm not recording live, is there any point having an external mixer (unless I'm recoring live piano), why not just use a mixer/EQ in the software?
Click to expand...

Nope. Not really. I wouldn't bother with any kind of mixer unless you have some specific requirement that only a mixer can fulfil.

Charles_I said:
If there aren't any sound cards that have inputs other than those small stero pin sizes jacks I can see why the only alternative is USB.
Click to expand...

Those small stereo pin size jacks are something to avoid. Usually it's stereo in or out over one TRS jack which means unbalanced.
Unbalanced means susceptible to noise from nearby electronics.

If your device has 3.5mm jacks then it isn't really designed for decent quality recording.
 
Hi again Charles.
Just gone back to see why we got onto this "soundcard +mixer" tack! It started because you said you were building a PC and were thinking of fitting "a decent sound card".

After that I told you that a decent sound card was the 2496 but IF you went down that route you would need a mixer....You don't HAVE to! Just build your PC and get a good USB interface.

The two approaches are equally valid, each has its strengths and weaknesses but since you have got a bit sidetracked and fixated on the "bling" of the S(of a) B cards, forget sound cards altogether.

Jus' get a fekkin' NI KA6!

Dave.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I've done some homework and gone through all the posts so far, checked out the websites suggested and made some notes. No time to download any free trials yet.

One of the cooler features of Ableton is that it has powerful beat-matching features, so you don't have to worry so much about when you start the file or whether it's properly beat-matched to the rest of your audio.
Click to expand...

How does this work? Are you saying it alters the speed (and therefore pitch) of a track to "beat-match" it?

...and a grid of cells, with each cell able to contain anything from a single drum hit to an entire song
Click to expand...

I can’t get my head around how this is even possible or useful

There's a wonderful directory provided by a site called KVR Audio which allows you to search by price, operating system, workstation software, and type of synthesizer or effect.
Click to expand...

It looks wonderful but being a newbie I have no idea what any of the options mean :-)

Choices:

Ableton - having read all the comments so far it looks like this is overkill for me anyway

Protools - from the price it may be more than I need at this point - plus at that price I'm not going with anything that has a comment like this:
I have used ProTools quite a bit as well, and while people keep telling me it's great, I really didn't like it (IconDigitalUSA)
Click to expand...

Reaper - looks very professional (maybe too professional for me), hard to tell without trying it

SONAR X3 - huge range or prices - needs lots more research

Audition (I have) - but no MIDI is a good point and definitely a drawback

PreSonus AudioBox - looks good for my purposes

Cubase - looks like it might be too much

PIANOTEQ - looks interesting, how does a virtual piano work?

BFD Eco - looks good and affordable

M-Audio 2496 - PCI soundcard - at least it has RCA inputs - is available on eBay - but you guys have convinced me that USB is the way to go - it has MIDI as well? Maybe you’re referring to something other than a soundcard.

M-Audio Audiophile 192 - also available on eBay - very inexpensive - I see there is also an even cheaper M-Audio Audiophile USB version on eBay with loads of inputs and outputs at such a low price it makes me wonder if it’s any good.

There is a great stickie about AIs (but get the KA6 if you really want one!)
Click to expand...

Where? All I can find about a KA6 is a glider - not what I want ;-)

Many peeps swear by "Eze-Drummer" . Personally I swore at it when I saw the amount of crap the demo left in my Registry!
Click to expand...

Thanks - don’t want that either!

Scarlett 2i2 or Scarlett 6i6 - look good

Sampletank 3 - an impressive amount of instruments and drum sounds for the price - can it be any good? I’ll have to give the free one a try

Piano One - not as many sounds as some of the other choices

Kontakt Player - a whole system of sounds from drums to everything - is it better to go with an all-in-one choice like this?

Addictive Drums, Abbey Road Drums - who could ever say no to Abbey Road? ;-) Seriously, though, for someone who has never played drums - what’s the easiest choice?

Tascam 1800 - great name in tape recorders and sound equipment - from the good old days - this one looks like too many inputs for my purposes

I see a lot of you guys in this forum are in the UK. Glad to see that. I know from my many trips to the UK in the 80s and 90s that you UK people are very serious about your audio - much more than North Americans. (You also spend enormous amounts of money on audio components.)

Charles
 
"Where? All I can find about a KA6 is a glider - not what I want ;-)"

Sorry, a link generally leaps out of Google!
Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6. Best AI IMO (and many others) sub £200.
Two very decent mic/line/instru inputs, two more balanced line inputs. MIDI and S/PDIF. Best drivers you will get except RME (get an RME if you can afford it by all means!) Blindingly fast latency. Kontakt Player and shedload of downloads.

Plus Cubase "Lite" so you might be baffled by it* but at least you are being baffled for sod all!

*You can always set it up to do "the bits you want to do" and use another DAW for day to day....

Dave.
 
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