Max digital volume and Monitors

P

Pinkertel

New member
Hi everyone:),

New on the forum :). And already asking questions :)

I am not a tech genius more a are guitar and piano player.
And I record the old fashion way without midi.

I record/mix my stuff in adobe audition. And recently I wanted to "upgrade" to some lower budget monitors.

My understanding always was that you should max your windows/master volumes coming from the computer. And than lower it with a analog volume control on your interface or in this case on your monitors.

Why (and I always thought this was the case)?

1- Because digital volume controls by lowering the volume also lower the bit depth and gives your sound less dynamics and signal to noise ratio.
2- Also some digital volume controls affect the EQ. Because the human ear has different sensitivities for frequencies at different db levels. Some digital volumes compensate for this.
3- Also it isn't handy to have different volume controls with different cuts or gains in your chain because you want uniformity in your sound (even more important if it also effects EQ).

I always max out the volume and send it to my mixing board (no problem) and then to headphones or to a amplifier with speakers (no problem)

But I recently moved and I didn't want my hifi setup (an old philips amp and pmc speakers ) connected to my computer anymore.

So I bought some active monitors to start out with https://www.bax-shop.nl/studio-monitor/hercules-xps-2-0-80-dj-monitorset They sound great for the price.

The problem:
Maxing out the volume on the computer and sending it to these speakers creates overdrive in the speakers. So I have to lower the volume on my computer 15 db. These monitors can't seem to handle a standard balanced max volume signal.

Question:
Is my info wrong or outdated? Or do I approach this in the wrong way. I have always done it this way. When I started out I was told this was the best way to go about it. But it seems these active monitors weren't designed to handle a max signal.

The store guy didn't know what I was talking about and said I shouldn't send a max signal and he never heard of the "digital volume problem":eek:. ANd it isn't a defect.

So what should I do? What is the best way?

Thank you guys and gals,

Pinkertel

Setup:
Soundcard: Esi Juli@ Balanced
Monitors: Hercules 20 Dj monitors Balanced
Mixing board: Macky Tapco mix60 Balanced
 
You don't want to map through Windows mixer... I don't remember where it is, but in the device properties, you should be able to "Do not map through this device."

Otherwise, you need calibration tones and a meter. Arguably, *still* you want calibration tones and a meter. But see if you can get Windows out of the equation first.
 
Do you have an audio interface, or are you just coming out of the headphone output of the computer?

If you are just using the internal sound from the computer, get a recording interface. It will bypass all the windows garbage, output a line level signal, give you a volume control, zero latency monitoring, etc...

If you do have an interface, the windows mixer should not be involved at all. You should be using balanced TRS cables to go to the monitors and everything should just work out.

It just sounds like you are interfacing an output that is putting out more level than the input on the speakers is meant to deal with, or there is some impedance change from your old setup that makes the output on the computer distort more easily.

Please explain what you are hooking up to what, with what cables.
 
I just turn it down. Should be a no brainer.

As far as calibration goes, if you don't have any Lab gear, you can cross check PC tone generators against calibration tones available on the web and see how that lines up with your 0.755v, or, whatever systems
 
Wait wait.

Before the thread goes all over the place.

My question was about if those things I mentioned about digital volume control are correct. Second if the info is incorrect what should I do about it.

You don't want to map through Windows mixer... I don't remember where it is, but in the device properties, you should be able to "Do not map through this device."

Otherwise, you need calibration tones and a meter. Arguably, *still* you want calibration tones and a meter. But see if you can get Windows out of the equation first.
Click to expand...

Map trough? windows mixer just mentiones that the Esi juli@ soundcard handles die audio and has a volume. Although it is weird that there still is a seperate windows volume.... So you are saying somehow I can get this out of the map/chain? Can't find what you mention on device properties or control panel it just says it uses the Esi Juli@ for sound. And calibration. Sorry maybe I don't understand but what has this got to do with what I asked?
Do you have an audio interface, or are you just coming out of the headphone output of the computer?

If you are just using the internal sound from the computer, get a recording interface. It will bypass all the windows garbage, output a line level signal, give you a volume control, zero latency monitoring, etc...

If you do have an interface, the windows mixer should not be involved at all. You should be using balanced TRS cables to go to the monitors and everything should just work out.

It just sounds like you are interfacing an output that is putting out more level than the input on the speakers is meant to deal with, or there is some impedance change from your old setup that makes the output on the computer distort more easily.

Please explain what you are hooking up to what, with what cables.
Click to expand...

Simple. I just have a Pc (windows 8). With a soundcard that has TRS balanced L/R outputs ESI - Juli@. Those go to the TRS balanced L/R inputs of the monitors https://www.bax-shop.nl/studio-monit...-dj-monitorset. I max out the signal on software on both the esi control panel https://www.google.nl/search?q=esi+...UIBygC&biw=1536&bih=793#imgrc=4VkH1h8PwCk4qM:
and the windows volume. Than as a volume control I use the volume on the monitors. Everything is hooked up with quality studiocable and jacks. And I even cleaned the contacts with contact cleaner :)

I just turn it down. Should be a no brainer.
Click to expand...

Yes but what about the digital volume problems I mentioned?
 
2- Also some digital volume controls affect the EQ. Because the human ear has different sensitivities for frequencies at different db levels. Some digital volumes compensate for this.
Click to expand...
Look for Fletcher Munson curve. Our ear/perception of freq balance varies with sound pressure level. But that's dependent on or ear, not what method is used to control the loudness.
Hmm. Haven't heard of digi volume controls that compensate for it (how would a volume control know what your final playback SPL actually is?) Pretty Shure I wouldn't want some extra variable like that in my chain.
 
Are you using the ASIO driver in audition? That will get you out of the windows mixer and all that garbage.

1- Because digital volume controls by lowering the volume also lower the bit depth and gives your sound less dynamics and signal to noise ratio.
Click to expand...
Yes

2- Also some digital volume controls affect the EQ. Because the human ear has different sensitivities for frequencies at different db levels. Some digital volumes compensate for this.
Click to expand...
No, volume affects the way we perceive different frequencies. But that difference is in our ears, it has nothing to do with digital anything.
3- Also it isn't handy to have different volume controls with different cuts or gains in your chain because you want uniformity in your sound (even more important if it also effects EQ).
Click to expand...
Those gains are there to match the output of one unit to the expected input of the next. If you are using equipment that all has the same line level, these controls are not necessary.
 
The ESI Juli@ card runs unbalanced -10dBV or balanced +4dBu (+20dBu max) outputs.

You are running +4 balanced and so I am not surprised the monitors clip on peaks, The volume pot on the monitors is almost certainly POST the input balanced amplifier. It is a pretty shit input amp on a piece of mains powered kit that does not have at least 20dB of headroom but there you go!

The solution as I see it is a passive (not keen but they are ok for short runs) monitor controller and run the card's internal levels at max (I have an ESI 1010e and a 2496 and do this) .

Then look at Massive's Missive re calibrating monitors. You will need a C weighted sound level meter.

Dave.
 
I was just talking about a voltage meter to make sure he wasn't whacking the inputs with 4 volts or something when he should be at 1.2 (or 0.77)... But yeah - After that, calibrate the volume too. :thumbs up:
 
2- Also some digital volume controls affect the EQ. Because the human ear has different sensitivities for frequencies at different db levels. Some digital volumes compensate for this.
Look for Fletcher Munson curve. Our ear/perception of freq balance varies with sound pressure level. But that's dependent on or ear, not what method is used to control the loudness.
Hmm. Haven't heard of digi volume controls that compensate for it (how would a volume control know what your final playback SPL actually is?) Pretty Shure I wouldn't want some extra variable like that in my chain.
Click to expand...

2- Also some digital volume controls affect the EQ. Because the human ear has different sensitivities for frequencies at different db levels. Some digital volumes compensate for this.
No, volume affects the way we perceive different frequencies. But that difference is in our ears, it has nothing to do with digital anything.
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase. It is/was my understanding that there are volume controls that are not just cutting db but also affect the eq at different settings of the volume for correcting for the Fletcher Munson curve. So for instance when you turn the volume way down on something like an amp the sound doesn't lose high and low frequencies. And our perception of those frequencies stay the same also on low volumes as on normal volumes. And also I remembered somebody mentioning that the windows volume mixer does this (when I started out homerecording with a guy who has a production company). And that this is another good reason to max out digital volumes.

The ESI Juli@ card runs unbalanced -10dBV or balanced +4dBu (+20dBu max) outputs.

You are running +4 balanced and so I am not surprised the monitors clip on peaks, The volume pot on the monitors is almost certainly POST the input balanced amplifier. It is a pretty shit input amp on a piece of mains powered kit that does not have at least 20dB of headroom but there you go!

The solution as I see it is a passive (not keen but they are ok for short runs) monitor controller and run the card's internal levels at max (I have an ESI 1010e and a 2496 and do this) .

Then look at Massive's Missive re calibrating monitors. You will need a C weighted sound level meter.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

So you agree that maxing out the volume on the computer is the correct way? And that these monitors are just garbage, and I should get something else with more headroom because max digital level volume on the computer should be a standard?

My whole thing is and why I started the thread. Is that I just want the professional standard correct way of doing things. And I always thought that a max volume on the computer is a standard practice because of the problems I mentioned above. But this monitor thing and the store guy really confused me. It really seems a crappy way to turn down digital volume to compensate for a budget design monitors flaw. And in a sense working around defects of my setup. I don't mind spending some extra money to get things at least at a level I can work professionally(although maybe not with professional stuff). I want to practice the right way of doing things and not already have a basic flaw in my setup I have to work around.
 
As long as you are running a soundcard (not an AI) I strongly advise something like this..https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_nano_patch_plus.htm?sid=0cf82cc46df2ad85b81cf85ec2a23f8b

Reason being, not only does it give you control but it is a last ditch knob to dive for when (not if!) the computer goes ape shit and puts out 0dBFS of noise.

Yes, AFAIK, if you are running ASIO drivers and a "proper" DAW you leave all gains at max. Computer audio runs at 32 bits "floating decimal" and is impossible to overload internally in the normal course of events.

Yes again, DO get some better monitors but the MConn will be useful anyway and as you will see if you read a few posts on the subject, choosing monitors is FAR from simples! Well, "I" would have NO trouble if someone bunged me $10,000!

Dave.
 
Most of your ideas are either incorrect or, at best, half right.

Turning down the volume in a digital mode does NOT affect the dynamic range. Even at 16 bit, your noise floor is far enough below peaks not to matter and at 24 bit (or 32 bit Floating Point which many DAWs use internally) you have more dynamic range than you can ever use.

Digital level controls do not affect the EQ directly--but, yes, ears do hear frequencies differently at different volumes. That's why for "pro" mixing there's a standard level used for all mixing. Don't forget that not everyone listening to your stuff will have the volume know at 11. Just turn it down to a comfortable level and you'll be fine.

It's not so much handy to have multiple volume controls in your chain as creating a requirement to set your gain structure properly. At it's simplest, once you're past a mic pre amp, you don't want to add gain anywhere if it means taking it out again later. Aim for all your controls to be at sensible levels, none turned way up or way down.

Finally, the advice to get a USB interface is good advice. Windows sound and the sound cards associated are meant for Skype calls and Youtube videos, not serious recording or mixing.
 
Now I know what you are talking about with the volume changing the eq curve. That was only a feature on home stereo systems. It was an attempt to replace the loudness button.

I don't know if they still do that anymore, but that was cheap home audio, never having anything to do with and studio or pro audio stuff.
 
Well, programming, today, isn't about what we can use, but more about; "what else can we do to prove how clever we are"
 
I use two sets of speakers: 1) Bookshelf speakers with a sub-woofer which runs off the soundcard of my computer; 2) Studio monitors which run off my AI.

I never see an issue using the windows volume control for the bookshelf speakers. I think you should feel free to use it to adjust listening levels. But, I do like the idea of a central monitoring controller. I considered something like the Mackie Big Knob that allows you to select from multiple inputs and route to multiple outputs. But maybe it's just a little too expensive for me. A passive controller like Dave suggested is a good idea at a better price. And like he said, it gives you a knob you can easily reach if you have unexpectedly loud audio.
 
"Finally, the advice to get a USB interface is good advice. Windows sound and the sound cards associated are meant for Skype calls and Youtube videos, not serious recording or mixing. " Bobbs, OP has an ESI Juli@ soundcard, WAY better than the SBs methinks? in fact, if it is anything like my 2496s he will search long and hard for a USB AI to match it, especially for latency.

My card runs into a small mixer and thence to the Tannoys. I am toying with the idea of building a monitor controller based on Duggy Self's Active Volume Control circuit but bits of the old body keep packing up so I shall have to wait a while till I am fixed.

Dave.
 
" It is/was my understanding that there are volume controls that are not just cutting db but also affect the eq at different settings of the volume for correcting for the Fletcher Munson curve".

Compensation is something like 10db at 100/200hz and 3db at 10k. That will show as a change on a frequency analyzer.

"Is that I just want the professional standard correct way of doing things. And I always thought that a max volume on the computer is a standard practice"

What was your voltage reading at the output : )
 
ecc83 said:
"Finally, the advice to get a USB interface is good advice. Windows sound and the sound cards associated are meant for Skype calls and Youtube videos, not serious recording or mixing. " Bobbs, OP has an ESI Juli@ soundcard, WAY better than the SBs methinks? in fact, if it is anything like my 2496s he will search long and hard for a USB AI to match it, especially for latency.
Click to expand...

My bad. I've never heard of the ESI card before but a quick look at the spec sounds okay. An external interface might still yield some operational advantages (like real knobs to control levels) but quality is not the issue I thought it was.

"Is that I just want the professional standard correct way of doing things. And I always thought that a max volume on the computer is a standard practice"

No it's not. I think it may be time for some basics.

There are several different dB scales in use for metering. Analogue tends to use dB(u) or dB(VU). On these scales, the zero level is a semi-arbitrary voltage (David can give his lecture about 600 ohm loads if he wants) but the result is that any decent gear has plenty of headroom above that zero level for you to use while recording.

Computers/digital, on the other hand, uses dB(FS) (Full Scale). This means that the zero level here is the absolute maximum the system can take without running out of bits. If you're recording at 24 bit, a sample at 0dB(FS) will be 111111111111111111111111, i.e there's nowhere else to go.

There's no exact conversion between dB(u) and dB(FS) but most manufacturers assume you should have 18 dB headroom above the zero level in analogue. for this reason, digital "zero" tends to be considered around -18dB. This means that to equate to recording in analogue you probably want your "average" around -18 with peaks in the -10 to -6 range (depending on the material). The myth of using every bit is just that...a myth.

If you go too high, you gain no quality, run the risk of digital clipping and, since levels are cumulative when you mix, you'll just have to turn everything down anyway.
 
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