Max digital volume and Monitors

Pinkertel: you will probably think, "Easy for him to say, a 71 year old electronics tech who started his interest at about 14!" but I AM going to say that this "level" business is not that hard to grasp. Ok, the dB 'FS' part complicates is some but not really that much.

The problem IMHO is that today, would be recordists have got things arse-upards! You see 'back in the day' anyone who did 'sound' and especially tape recording would, almost from necessity, have a working knowledge of the electronics involved and the parameters and jargon. Even a serious amateur who did Am Dram recording and school choirs would have a couple of decent tape machines (costing the equivalent of EVERTHING you have atmo!) AND some basic test gear. Maybe home made, a Heathkit millivoltmeter and audio generator. Definitely an Avo 7 or 8 (Google that lot!)

These guys would not usually be musicians, I was not although I could play a bit of guitar and transpose piano sheets (all we had!) they were interested in quality sound as much for the technical aspects as the music.

Today for $200 or so you can buy mic, AI and cans that beat the pants off ANTYTHING we had back then but the basics of electrical physics have not changed and we knew them. Now people don't.

Dave.
 
Ya, I think we just saw someone plugging a 9v ac wall wart into a device calling for 12v dc ? Just one instance of real world. Plugging four MICs into the XLR on the back of my 2-track won't give me anything, because AES had a different pin-out back then.

I don't have any self-amped speakers ('cept for that early '60s one) and I run into stereo amps. If I switch to +4, it sounds like it's too much. I'd think it would be pretty obvious
 
You see 'back in the day' anyone who did 'sound' and especially tape recording would, almost from necessity, have a working knowledge of the electronics involved and the parameters and jargon.

I've said it before and I still feel the same way...everyone who wants to record, whatever their goals, should start off with a 4/8-track tape deck and a few mics, a small mixer, maybe a couple of hardware processors...and absolutely nothing "digital".

Then when they have that all figured out...move over to digital...and it's amazing how everything digital just "works" when you approach it with that old-school analog mentality when it comes to gain staging and how certain things work, and what a compressor really does...etc.

It's got noting to do with any analog VS digital crap...rather it's just that analog expects you to do things a certain way, to follow known standards and rules.
Digital rerecording these days at the newb home rec/amateur level is a fucking free-for-all.

To this day, since I still do all my tracking in the analog domain, to tape...etc...I never, ever give levels much of a consideration once I transfer everything to digital, and there is usually minimal need for processing...especially if you approach tracking from the mindset that "this is it"...this is where I have to get my sound.
After that, dumping it all into the DAW is usually without the confusion and concerns....the audio is just there, as it should be, and you then just follow through with whatever you want to do in the digital domain.

YMMV...
 
Isn't old school bouncing 2-tracks around : ) hahaha

But ya, I have to go the write it 1000 times on the blackboard route. I had to buy a mixer and then I had to buy a reverb to learn anything

EDIT what I learned from the mixer was that I wasn't going to learn anything on a behringer 1002fx. hahah
 
Yup, the semantics is where the secrets are.

You set a mixer to 0db. This means that you aren't attenuating or adding gain. This is called unity.

0dbfs is a signal level, not a fader setting.

0dbVU is line level of the device you are using. Could be +4 or -10, depending on the equipment.

If you don't use, or use the wrong modifier (fs, VU, etc...) for dB, no one will be able to follow what you are saying.
 
A jack type is no indication of what level it's accepting by design

Yeah I know. But Balanced is balanced right? What soundcard or interface would send a balanced signal that isn't +4.
Balanced is already a prosumer thing right (never heard of it before starting recording my music).

The problem IMHO is that today, would be recordists have got things arse-upards!

Yes this is true. I have friends who earn a good living of recording their stuff. And if I ask them these kind of things they don't know and don't care. They just know how to work their DAW. And have a product that is satisfactory. I know a guy and he earns his living doing this (not a recording artist) . He just mixes of his laptop with the sound coming from the laptop. And the final product he listens of a flatscreen tv to make sure it is ok.


Yup, the semantics is where the secrets are.

You set a mixer to 0db. This means that you aren't attenuating or adding gain. This is called unity.

0dbfs is a signal level, not a fader setting.

0dbVU is line level of the device you are using. Could be +4 or -10, depending on the equipment.

If you don't use, or use the wrong modifier (fs, VU, etc...) for dB, no one will be able to follow what you are saying.

Ok! Thanx. Exactly what I needed to know. I am learning a lot. I am gonna read about it to make sure I really grasp these concepts.

So guys.What is the final verdict here? Hercules monitors don't take a balanced +4 or unbalanced -10 signal with the fader on the computer is set at unity without clipping.

Do we all agree this is normal because there isn't a standard and buying other active monitors won't matter. And I just have to cut 15 db with a mixing board between the monitors or a pot in a tin?
 
I don't get why one would think balanced is +4 ?

I agree G but I think the newcomer to these matters can be forgiven for gaining an impression of simplicity? The fact is Pinkertel, there are no standards about this and in any case 'balanced' comes in various forms.

The 'classic' balanced output uses a amplifier per 'leg' (pins 2 and 3 of an XLR). This has the advantage of a 6dB level boost when driving a proper balanced in out but is a bit dodgy for the home bod who might UN balance it because shorting the 'cold' side to ground can cause problems. The signal is still 'tied' to a ground and so does little to help ground loops.
Almost gone now is a fully 'floating' transformer output. Pretty bombproof, full galvanic isolation and very resistant to RFI but no 6dB lift and expensive to do with high quality. Very common these days is the 'impedance' balanced source. No signal gain and no better ground isolation than twin amps but very cheap to implement and no signal degradation as per the transformer. Z balance also has the great advantage that you cannot get the polarity wrong (aka, improperly, 'phase') since if you do you get buggerall!

Now, +4 (dBu) Mr P! This Operating Level has been snaffled from truly 'pro' gear and is often quoted where it really does not belong. You see, saying OP is +4dBu IMPLIES pro levels and that means a headroom of 18 to 20dB above +4dBu but a very great deal of otherwise really very good kit, AIs mostly, can only muster around +12, maybe +14dBu at most.

It is as you can see, a complex and varied subject and, as you rightly point out, MANY people do VERY good work and know Jack S about decibabble!

(and we have not even STARTED on ground cancelling systems!)

Dave.
 
Do we all agree this is normal because there isn't a standard and buying other active monitors won't matter. And I just have to cut 15 db with a mixing board between the monitors or a pot in a tin?
No, I think most of us think that the monitors you bought are junk. There is no reason in the world that the soundcard would put out a signal that a standard monitor wouldn't take. It should be one of the line levels.
 
A jack type is no indication of what level it's accepting by design

It's not a guarantee but it IS an indication. Domestic gear with RCA/Phono jacks on the back will have to be unbalanced and virtually always be -10 as the standard level. Similarly, a quarter inch TRS will usually be balanced and operating at the "professional" +4 level. The one hiccup on this could be using the same quarter inch as a stereo jack. Yes, there will be exceptions but the connector type is usually a good starting point.

I've said it before and I still feel the same way...everyone who wants to record, whatever their goals, should start off with a 4/8-track tape deck and a few mics, a small mixer, maybe a couple of hardware processors...and absolutely nothing "digital".

Then when they have that all figured out...move over to digital...and it's amazing how everything digital just "works" when you approach it with that old-school analog mentality when it comes to gain staging and how certain things work, and what a compressor really does...etc.

It's got noting to do with any analog VS digital crap...rather it's just that analog expects you to do things a certain way, to follow known standards and rules.
Digital rerecording these days at the newb home rec/amateur level is a fucking free-for-all.

To this day, since I still do all my tracking in the analog domain, to tape...etc...I never, ever give levels much of a consideration once I transfer everything to digital, and there is usually minimal need for processing...especially if you approach tracking from the mindset that "this is it"...this is where I have to get my sound.
After that, dumping it all into the DAW is usually without the confusion and concerns....the audio is just there, as it should be, and you then just follow through with whatever you want to do in the digital domain.

YMMV...

I'll join this bandwagon and throw in that it also applies to live sound. I've taught quite a few teenagers and it's WAY easier to teach things like gain staging and signal routing on an analogue board with dedicated knobs and connectors. Once they've figured out that sending a signal to Aux 1, into a reverb then back into channel 16 of the mixer--and seen actual cables doing the run--it's far easier for them to understand what's happening in the virtual world of digital.

I don't get why one would think balanced is +4 ?

As before, it's not a guarantee but the vast majority of the time if a piece of gear is professional enough to have balanced outputs it's probably also professional enough to use the +4 standard.

Bob
 
"It's not a guarantee but it IS an indication".

Well, there is a indication no one wants to put a level switch on the buss or jack cluster, anymore. That would eat profits : ) So, you plug a sm57 into XLR marked MIC and get no signal, why is that ?
 
Faulty mic, faulty cable or (on my mixer) the attenuation switch to change between mic an line levels in the wrong position.

As I said, the type of connector doesn't guarantee the level but the vast majority of domestic stuff is unbalanced -10 while anything more professional will almost certainly be +4...and if it's not a lot of users would complain.
 
I miss Ampex. I used my first piece of Ampex gear about 46 years ago and on the video side went through VR1000, 1200, 2000, AVR1. AVR2 quad recorders and then their badged versions of Beta SP gear,

They also bought a darn good lunch for customers.
 
I miss Ampex. I used my first piece of Ampex gear about 46 years ago and on the video side went through VR1000, 1200, 2000, AVR1. AVR2 quad recorders and then their badged versions of Beta SP gear,

They also bought a darn good lunch for customers.


What did you have for lunch? :)
 
They build for whatever the market needs. My Akai disk recorder is 220-volt, yet has a 120-volt plug on it : ) hahah
 
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