Keyboard and strings

Morbid Morbid

New member
I might be a moron about this question but im at a loss. To keep it short and simple:

I need strings sound for my music, but i want a hands on feeling and expression of a real keyboard or piano feel.

Do i get a real keyboard or some way use a digital instrument.
 
"Short and simple" is fine in its way but..Peeps here need to know a lot more about your setup.

Yes, IF you are a keyboard player, get a "dumb" keyboard controller like my Evolution Ekeys49 (there is an M-Audio clone) . That will play a strings VSTi in say Cubase (actually the Evo comes with quite a nice string sample) But! You will fall foul of "Latency". This is the lag between hitting a key and hearing the note. Latency is mostly a function of the quality of the "Audio Interface" (internal computer card won't cut it) and MOSTLY the drivers for said AI. In the limit the speed, CPU grunt, of the PC can have a bearing but if you JUST want to play (and record) keys, almost anything 2core or better will do.

Couple of things to look for in an AI? Two mic inputs minimum..MUST have ASIO drivers (if PC) and DO get one with DIN MIDI ports.

Keys? Largely personal taste I understand on "feel" but DO get one with a DIN MIDI port even if it is USB otherwise.

Should have added, most of the larger kbds have a jack at the back to take an "expression" pedal.

Dave.
 
Thanks dave, im mainly a guitar player so this midi stuff is new to me. I use a Scarlett 2i2 for my AI. What ive been doing when i need to record strings is use a decent yamaha keyboard string setting and mic it to an amplifier.

Is this wrong? I thought a midi keyboard or software didnt allow you to actually play using your fingers like you would on a physical keyboard.
 
Thanks dave, im mainly a guitar player so this midi stuff is new to me. I use a Scarlett 2i2 for my AI. What ive been doing when i need to record strings is use a decent yamaha keyboard string setting and mic it to an amplifier.

Is this wrong? I thought a midi keyboard or software didnt allow you to actually play using your fingers like you would on a physical keyboard.

A MIDI keyboard like the one I have (bought for grade 8 son I might add. I can just about manage The Queen!) does not, as you say have any "sounds" in it nor does it have any audio outputs (please give the model # of that Yamaha) but these days they connect via USB and so can control software in the PC and they usually come with a program of limited sounds*

The better kbd controllers also have a DIN MIDI output port (the REALLY good ones have MIDI in as well and often line inputs) This allows the keys to drive the MIDI port of an AI which makes for a tidy setup. Unfortunately the beancounters at F'rite did not stump up for MIDI ports on the 2i2!

Not a huge problem, USB will work. The benefit of a "dumb" controller is that you get 49+ keys in a compact device, powered from USB and since there are no extras such as note generators, synth "engines", power amps or speakers, the things are relatively cheap. My Ek49 was well under £100.

*There is a thing call Msoft Synth Wavetable built into all versions of Windows AFAIK. This is handy for test purposes or maybe to just 'make a drum-like' noise but the sound quality is pretty dire as is the latency. You can trigger it from the QWERTY there is even a little prog' out there to make the PC keyboard a (very!) basic controller keyboard.

Dave.
 
I've got a used M-Audio Keystation plugged in via USB and 5 pin MIDI (sometimes there's an issue with the USB, for some reason), in addition to an Akai LPK 25, a small keyboard that is at hand and on which I've recorded many MIDI strings and synth stuff. I'm a guitar player who often uses string emulations and other synths in recordings. The software for these sounds? Korg's Legacy collection, an old Mellotron emulation called "Meltron", other stuff i don't recall, but mostly I use Samplitude Pro X 2's mighty synth collection, which of course includes strings.
What you've been doing--recording a Yamaha keyboard into an amp--is okay, but extremely limited, obviously. Get a keyboard like the M-Audio ($100.00), and then, follow this link and consider that amazing deal. Pro X 3 retails normally for about 1300.00, and this $200.00 was actually $150.00 just a week ago. Crazy good deal. Special offer: MAGIX Samplitude Pro X Suite – Audio production
Of course, you can just get something like the Korg Legacy collection, which is both a VSTi instrument (a plug-in that must be played via some kind of digital audio workstation or player "frame") and a stand-alone. You can start it up and play out of the computer and into an amp . . . anyway, you have a lot of options, and the VSTi instruments keep getting better and better, and there are huge amounts of free VSTi's available on the internet.
 
Good advice re Sam Pro X3 TimOD. I would just like to put in a plug ("What! AGAIN!) for the Native Instruments KA6. Not only do you get 4 analogue inputs but S/PDIF and MIDI I/O to boot. Superb converter quality and the lowest latency you are likely to see this side of RME. PLUS! Kontakt Player and about 3G of samples to download.

Oh! And Cubase but you won't need that if you get Pro X3.

Dave.
 
A a recent convert to proper expensive samplers - Spitfire Audio, I'm a convert but the two of us who do our music projects are quite different - I am a generalist. I don't play anything exceptionally well, but I play to a standard high enough people pay me! My friend and long-term colleague and collaborator is a proper pianist - of the play at least 4 hours a day for practice type pianist. Excellent sight reading, very good ear and all round good guy. He struggles with technology but I'm pretty good with it so as a working pair we're good.

The need to have realistic orchestral sounds for an on the go project meant we both bought the Spitfire product and a few others too - and swap files easily. However, to produce an accurate rendition in the machine of real strings, woodwind and brass means pressing a key is not enough - you also need modulation, expression volume, vibrato, and critically, keyswitch changes to match the note you play - so if you are playing fast, loud, staccato notes, this needs a fast, short sample, yet the next sustained note needs a different type of sample - so you need to play with your right hand the notes, and then your left hand is changing the sounds, bringing each note in and out and you have to play it! Watch the Spitfire Audio videos to see how they do it and you will get the picture. I've become competent, but not yet fluent, but my friends hasn't - so at the moment, he's playing, and I'm then adding the other hands - he just cannot get the hang of it. Part of the problem is that real string, brass and woodwind instruments are not played with keys - they're done with bows and lips, and teeth and tongue - and on a violin, for example, you never go from silence to full volume instantly - every note ramps up to the required volume - quickly or slowly, and once it's sounding, it might increase, or get quieter.

I ended up buying a proper master keyboard that has programmable faders so I can control all the things available - even so, sometimes a very simple little melody takes umpteen plays to get right. If you just want ensemble strings, then at the very least you need control of volume (midi controller 7, or perhaps 11, expression) but modulation is also slightly different on some samples. With something even as basic as Halion on Cubase - controllers can make string sections sound more realistic.

Not wishing to confuse it even further, but you also need to consider the notes you select. Close together block chords rarely sound authentic - in practice - you might have a couple up top, one a bit lower, another lower than that and then one very low - absolutely two handed chords, leaving no limbs left!
 
In order for strings to sound as"natural" assible you need a VST that is capable of picking touch and aftertouch...same on the midi controller it must have touch and aftertouch and be able to accept an expression pedal...

Any midi keyboard can trigger the strings but without touch and after touch and a expression pedal it would be very hard to get a natural feel from the VST...

Don't get me wrong the strings will sound OK without aftertouch but once you have played with aftertouch you will most likely not ever record without it again...with regard to strings and horns...another VERY cool thing is breath controllers talk about feeling...wow!

Here's a thread on the topic over at sweetwater
 
Hi Morbid Morbid,
Maybe you could look in the back of your yamaha keyboard to see if there is a way to connect it to a computer directly? Do you like how it sound right now with your yamaha keyboard and mic recording?
If you are happy with how it sound right now you could just continue doing it like that. If not then you could get a midi keyboard, it's pretty cheap compare to a real keyboard but doesn't have sound in it self. You should make sure that the keys on the midi keyboard you get is at least semi weighted that way it will be able to transmit the way you press on the keys (hard or soft) so you can have the feelings you want. Most of them do now.
If you need recommandations on midi keyboard I personnaly own two that I like, one is a M-Audio Axiom 61 and I have a little Korg microkey with 32 keys that I like because it's really simple and small so usefull for when I need to bring all my stuff to my jam room (guitar, keyboard, pedals, laptop etc.).
For the string sounds I know that there is a lot of free ones you can download and add to your DAW (the software you use to record). (here is one I just googled but didn't try: Download Free String ensemble plug-in: Orchestral Strings One by Sound Magic) .

Personnally I use Garritan Instant Orchestra, it has reallistic string sounds and I have also M1 from Korg if ever I want to have a more simplier old black metal string sound (most of the keyboardist then had Korg like Dimmu, Emperor etc.)

If you want a list of good ones :
Studio One | The 30 Best Sample Libraries For Orchestral Scoring

6 of the Best Orchestral Software - Classical Considerations

Hope this was helpful.
 
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