How to apply L-C-R-panning?

P

Pachakuti

New member
Greetings!
I've been reading Mixerman's "Zen and the Art of mixing" and now i am confused about panning. He is talking about LCR-panning (i.e. panning most of your stuff either hard left, center or hard right) but there are
two problems that often occur when i try to use LCR-panning in my mixes:
1. Stereo turns to mono when panned hard. This means i would lose all my stereowidth when panning a melody hard left or right.
2. The second problem is the balance between hard left and hard right. If i pan sth. hard left, i need sth. similar panned hard right, otherwise the mix seems unbalanced.

So it seems the best candidates for being panned hard right or left would be percussions that are already in mono. But then i would need two percussion elements so that one can be panned right and the other left for the balance of the mix.
But what to do if i don't have percussions in my track or only one percussion-element?

How can i make full use of hard right/left panning but still keep a wide stereo-panorama and still keep the mix balanced?
How would you pan these kind of mixes?

1. (drums, bass,) vocals, melody
2. (drums, bass,) vocals, two melodies
3. (drums, bass,) melody
4. (drums, bass,) two melodies

5. my current project: (kick, snare, hihat, bass,) pad, vocal sample (a oneshot with lots of reverb and delay on it; used like a pad in the background), two melodies and rap-vocals

I'd be happy to get some help from you! Thanks!
 
Pachakuti said:
Stereo turns to mono when panned hard. This means i would lose all my stereowidth when panning a melody hard left or right.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you mean by this. If you pan a mono track (in this case "melody", which I'm guessing is just a single lead vocal) hard left or right, it should be heard all the way on the left or right. How does it turn into mono? It's already mono to begin with.
 
I usually take a less all or nothing approach but do tend to have most of the key elements panned LCR. These are the most clearly imaged areas in the stereo field (in fact the L& R are the most well defined)
Since the soft panning elements (stuff between 100% L or right and center) tends to have a more wishy washy position in the stereo field I use it for things that I want to tuck behind other elements

So I'll often have something like this (obviously changing depending on the needs of the song)

center:
Vocals, Kick Snare, Bass, Guitar leads, mono synth leads

Hard L&R:
Drum overheads (to create a stereo image of the kit)
Multi tracked rhythm guitars
Synth pads to maintain their stereo image
Any other stereo/dual mono track or fx that need a stereo image maintained

Wishy Washy soft pans (well clear of center so like at least 50% or more panned) to one side or the other:
Backing vox
Backing acoustic strums
Mono Reverb
Special FX & embellishments that don't rely on a wide stereo spread
Strings (usually a back drop thing for me)
Piano notes (usually a backdrop thing again)

Peak and RMS levels will vary from L-R but this is music, not geometry, so I don't worry about it

If I were going pure LCR I'd probably split the Soft pan stuff into a couple of separate tracks and pan parts of them L&R and stuff like reverbs either tuck in center or have it panned opposite to the main sound that it's reverberating
 
Other than 'tricks' (double-tracked vocals, etc) and lead vocals being centered, I pan everything as if I was watching a band play it live in front of me. I reduce the 'width' of the drums (and most other tracks) - a mix with the high hat way off on the right and floor toms way off on the left would sound strange (to me).
 
RAMI said:
I have no idea what you mean by this. If you pan a mono track (in this case "melody", which I'm guessing is just a single lead vocal) hard left or right, it should be heard all the way on the left or right. How does it turn into mono? It's already mono to begin with.
Click to expand...

I took it to mean if stereo sound is hard panned it becomes mono- either collapsed' to one side or more likely you're left with just one side as in the case if it acts like a balance control.

Not sure if it applies to LCR' but I'd presume 'stereo content is already L' + R'.
 
So it seems the best candidates for being panned hard right or left would be percussions that are already in mono. But then i would need two percussion elements so that one can be panned right and the other left for the balance of the mix.
But what to do if i don't have percussions in my track or only one percussion-element?
Click to expand...
Perhaps rather look at it's simply saying stuff that belongs in the middle (lead voc, bass, drums typically) stays there and that stuff you want on the outside goes all the way out.
The up side; center is center (the glorious mono?) and side' is well out, as wide as it gets (..and out of the way of 'center.
It's sort of a way of being very direct about it, along with the idea that a lot of those small in between pan positions actually overlap a lot (depending on listening position among other things) and end up rather vague approximations of the percentage numbers we'd think should represent positions in the stage width.

Having said all that.. ;)
a) it didn't really come out to great and b)
no I didn't hang that well with it. I like the way the in betweens' can help place and spread things.
 
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If you are going to mix lcr, you should record with that in mind. You need to arrange the parts in such a way to make it work out well.

The main reason this is a thing is because in the early days of stereo mixing consoles, there weren't pan pots, there were just 3 way toggle switches. left, center, and right were the only choices. That only lasted a couple years before pan pots were introduced.
 
Thanks a lot!

RAMI and mixsit, yes i meant what you were saying, mixsit.

Bristol Posse, you write:
"Hard L&R:
(...)
Synth pads to maintain their stereo image
Any other stereo/dual mono track or fx that need a stereo image maintained"

I do not yet get this... Do you mean panning it hard left AND hard right at the same time? If i pan it hard left or hard right only, how can the stereo image be maintained? Because to me it sounds just like turning it to mono.

Here is my current project for you to listen to.

The vocals are still missing.
In the verse it is: kick, bass, snare, hihats, pad, synth-melody and vocal sample. In the hook a second synth-meoldy is added. Everything is panned center.

Now, if i'd want to go with the l-c-r-approach, which elements would you consider for panning hard right/left?
 

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Pachakuti said:
I do not yet get this... Do you mean panning it hard left AND hard right at the same time? If i pan it hard left or hard right only, how can the stereo image be maintained? Because to me it sounds just like turning it to mono.
Click to expand...
OK, I still don't understand why you think that. It's actually the opposite. If we're talking about a STEREO signal coming out of your keyboard, that means that each side (Left and Right) is sending out a slightly different signal. You have to pan them hard right and left if you want to maintain the stereo image. That's what "stereo" is. Panning them to the middle will make them come only out of the "middle", which is essentially "mono".

Not may instruments are stereo. In fact, most aren't. Any drum, guitar, vocal, horn, etc....are mono instruments. It's how and where they're placed in the mix that makes the entire mix "stereo". But, really, about the only "stereo" instruments are synths, and I can't think of many else, though there might be others. A drum set will usually end up in stereo, but that's only because of the 2 overheads (which are actually 2 mono sources) which are usually panned hard right and left, or close to hard right and left.
 
RAMI said:
Not many instruments are stereo. In fact, most aren't. Any drum, guitar, vocal, horn, etc....are mono instruments. It's how and where they're placed in the mix that makes the entire mix "stereo". But, really, about the only "stereo" instruments are synths, and I can't think of many else, though there might be others. A drum set will usually end up in stereo, but that's only because of the 2 overheads (which are actually 2 mono sources) which are usually panned hard right and left, or close to hard right and left.
Click to expand...

I sing in stereo. It's a talent I have... Envy me... ;):laughings:
 
True *stereo* begins at the source and how it is miked.
You have to use two mics with one of the typical stereo techniques.

Otherwise, like RAMI said, most tracks/sources are mono. When you put a mic in front of a guitar cab and record that....it's mono (even if you record it to a stereo track in your DAW...it's the same mono source both Left and Right).
When you sing into a mic....that's also mono.

Panning these mono sources in a mix allows you to build a stereo "image"....so yeah, some will panned hard left others right, some center and some in-between. If you have stereo sources that were recorded with a stereo mic technique...or some synth pads that were set up with a stereo "image"....then to maintain them, pan hard L/R to keep the full stereo spread, or you can shrink it by panning each side more toward center and any points in-between.
 
Pachakuti said:
Thanks a lot!

RAMI and mixsit, yes i meant what you were saying, mixsit.

Bristol Posse, you write:
"Hard L&R:
(...)
Synth pads to maintain their stereo image
Any other stereo/dual mono track or fx that need a stereo image maintained"

I do not yet get this... Do you mean panning it hard left AND hard right at the same time? If i pan it hard left or hard right only, how can the stereo image be maintained? Because to me it sounds just like turning it to mono.

Here is my current project for you to listen to.

The vocals are still missing.
In the verse it is: kick, bass, snare, hihats, pad, synth-melody and vocal sample. In the hook a second synth-meoldy is added. Everything is panned center.

Now, if i'd want to go with the l-c-r-approach, which elements would you consider for panning hard right/left?
Click to expand...
You are getting confused because you are probably using stereo tracks. stereo tracks are effectively two mono tracks banned hard away from each other. so in order to maintain the image in that instance, you keep the pan control centered. For those of us that use mono tracks for everything, the left and right channels need to be banned away from each other to maintain the stereo image.
 
Farview said:
You are getting confused because you are probably using stereo tracks.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, that probably explains the communication problems we were all having. I was assuming that we're talking about being able to pan the left side hard left and the right side hard right independently, not thinking about the fact that it might be a stereo track.
 
I think there is no rules to do it. Its depend on our creativity and experience. And don't worry to do something extreme beyond the others. There is two type of mix result, good (technically) and wow (musically). I prefer to musical

What the expert write in the books or article is not rules.. Thats only small part of mixing technics around the world that happen to his carrier.. :)

sorry for my bad english

God bless
 
+1. A lot of times, the techniques that professionals use are really just extensions of how those individuals think and organize things in their head. The technique they are using works for them because that is the most efficient way for them to interact with the mix. This is an artform, not a technical absolute. So the way the mix engineer feels about and interacts with the task is just as important as the technical, science based things that he does. It's easy to forget that when you are reading about someone's techniques. Some people need to be restricted by the L-C-R approach, otherswould feel trapped by it. There is no "right" way to approach this sort if thing, just the one that works for you.
 
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