Having an Objective View of Your Abilities

I will add a question here, how does one know they have a well treated room? I see the old clapping trick, listening for echoes and such but are there any tried and true methods. Identifying a real bad room seems fairly easy?
Model and measure. There are a number of spreadsheets such as John Brandt's that work if your room is proportioned as a rectangle. Mine isn't and required additional calculations. For a normal rectangular room, you enter the dimensions and it will calculate room modes at various frequencies. Bottom end is the greatest challenge so it is interesting to read your comment about muddy bass.

After modeling, as someone famous once said, trust but verify. REW is a free software that you use with a measuring microphone. Doesn't have to be particularly expensive. I use a Behringer ECM8000 which is $42 on Amazon. It is useful for finding more ideal mix and monitor position. It is again, another rabbit hole one can go down. Once you know how bad your space actually is, one can obsess about it. Figuring out what all the graphs and data means is another big learning curve.

I took about 6 months for my studio upgrade working out the treatment design with measuring and mocking up various absorbers. My next house when I retire won't have a studio but will have a listening room. Having a room where I can really hear every detail in the music I love is one my life's greatest pleasures.
 
My gear is now in a basement. I would say the room is about 500-600 sqft, rectagular, cinder block walls. The walls are now completely lined with movable plastic shelving that I have bought, full of boxes of fabric, clothes and just all kinds of stuff so at this moment it isn't full of echos and is fairly dead. Concrete floor which I have covered with rugs. Most of my recording goes directly in so the room is not an issue I guess until mixdown. With vocals or whenever I want to use an amp or whatever it will be an issue.
 
The difference between the engineering between lets say, Stones, Beatles and the Moody Blues is striking. The Moodies mixes are really muddy and not very good comparatively speaking
I've long felt that the Rolling Stones' recordings from the 60s are pretty poor. I love the songs and can listen to them all day and night, but as actual recordings, they suck and they blow, sonically.
The Beatles' were much better and clearer as recordings. The Who and the Kinks were sometime ~ ish. The Byrds were a mixed bag. Dylan's were fairly good.
I have heard better mixes from the 50s
I think 50s recordings and mixes are better because they were simpler. The songs by comparison with the latter part of the 60s and beyond, weren't as adventurous.
 
I've long felt that the Rolling Stones' recordings from the 60s are pretty poor. I love the songs and can listen to them all day and night, but as actual recordings, they suck and they blow, sonically.
The Beatles' were much better and clearer as recordings. The Who and the Kinks were sometime ~ ish. The Byrds were a mixed bag. Dylan's were fairly good.

I think 50s recordings and mixes are better because they were simpler. The songs by comparison with the latter part of the 60s and beyond, weren't as adventurous.
The Stones recordings aren't that great but they aren't bad and they are certainly better than the Moody Blues. I am was a big Moodies fan but I wish their recordings were better. Even remastered they suck. I was lucky to see Clarence White with the Byrds three times, what a killer guitar player.
 
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You could use room eq software and a microphone to identify how bad it is? That said i have just put a set of speakers i know in the room and listen to see if they sound terrible compared to what i’m used too. The thing with acoustic is there’s so many variables: room shape, speaker position, the furniture, materials / fabrics, flooring all make a huge difference to sound waves good and bad. Acoustic panels help absorb sound waves and egg crate boxes breakup the waves so i’m sure you could make most rooms into a good treated room. I should add i’ve not used room eq myself but believe it’s what professional audiophiles use to fine tune hi end speakers

Neal
 
Thing is nice equipment can make things easier but you still need a fine ear and sound talent. It’s the same with photography. If you have the eye for composition you can take an amazing picture with a phone or cheap camera. giving say my wife my dslr camera wouldn’t improve the picture and likely make it worse as she has no eye for it. Same with any nice professional studio kit or software, if anything like my camera analogy probably worse as all the extras, buttons would complicate matters.
Use what you can afford and learn first, you may find you don’t have the ear or eye for it and just spent s lot of money for nothing.

Neal
 
I think 50s recordings and mixes are better because they were simpler. The songs by comparison with the latter part of the 60s and beyond, weren't as adventurous.
Simpler? Some of the strangest chord progressions ever, some with full orchestration, all having to be done in one take, no overdubbing or "fixing it."
I highly doubt it was simpler.
 
Wow this is an old revived thread a lot peeps I haven't seen here in many years..

I was talking to the wife the other day about seeing the original Lynard Skynard band a few times back in the day and how incredible it was..Mind blowing good...

I can't think of ever feeling the energy or vibes I felt and some of the best concerts I have seen...from any recording of same said band...Mind you I have seen waaay to many concerts that had suck sound or were just at a bad venue. But when the planets and stars are aligned properly a live music experience just can't be beat, warts, clams and all. Some crazy memorable concerts...I've been to 100's of concerts but the big venues normally just don't have the same magic as the smaller intimate ones do...that's where the magic happens...

The job of recording is to try and capture that magic experience and put it in a bottle to duplicate and share. For sure on a kick ass sound system when the AIR IS MOVING from the speakers and the room is pulsing you can get close....but in the sterile environment of a set of headphones..you can enjoy the music, pick it apart, hear nuances that you might miss in a live performance. You can manipulate and add extra tracks and side effects but that magic of a LIVE performance is hard to capture.... That's why those 50's recordings sound so damn good but those players had to be on their game...

I love the idea of multitrack and plan on using it more...but after 15 years of analysis paralysis and GAS I finally just started pushing the record button with the full intention of what I capture is what I get ....It's pretty easy when it's just me playing the piano and me singing.... I might go through and remove the air from the mic when I am not singing, throw a little compression and level the signals.. remove a bad clam but that's it for me... I have done a few multitracks and they came out ok but the time it takes sure throws a wet blanket on inspiration and musical creativity.

Doing live videos and getting a good sound is even trickier cause for sure you have to get it right in one shot or you're pissing in the wind "fixing it"...
 
Agreed. Almost every live performance by the A circuit bands I have seen sound far better than any recording they have made, clams, squeaks, broken strings, whatever.
I once saw the Moody Blues do "The Story in Your Eyes". They started it off about three times the tempo on the album. The verse lines are long. The singer is trying to spit them out like the end of a car commercial. The band members are wildly swinging over centertime trying to keep up. I'm thinking, this is the first time I am going to see a pro band have to stop on the middle of a song. Somehow they pulled it off!
 
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But getting back to having an objective view of your abilities...That's an interesting but challenging thing to accomplish... SWOT analysis Strengths, Weakness's, Opportunities and Threats.... Based upon that sincere analysis you can set the bar to an attainable level and go for it. I set mine for being in a world class, world touring rock band 40 years ago. Came close but no cigar, Not that it was unrealistic it just didn't happen. 40 years later it's a different game and if I can put a smile on a few folks faces I'm happy. Anything beyond that is all gravy.
 
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Almost every live performance by the A circuit bands I have seen sound far better than any recording they have made
Exercise caution. Don't invest yourself into someone elses dream. That is your light. Your attention. Its hard for me to even listen to anything new, knowing I could cut them all..Yes, they are young. ...But this is NOW. I do need to think about the future. Like starwars ..

Anakin kills the young lings before they can become a future threat, after he is denied the rank of Master by the Council.

You are the best. Always. Dont need no glitter. No Hollywood. Just lay it down, and lay it down good.
 
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Simply, you are the best you can be. Now. Not then. No other version of yourself has made it further. Like Moody blues, they had more experience at that point than when they recorded it. That experience has the potential to improve their sound.

Same with listening. You are a better listener now, than then.
 
Simply, you are the best you can be. Now. Not then. No other version of yourself has made it further. Like Moody blues, they had more experience at that point than when they recorded it. That experience has the potential to improve their sound.

Same with listening. You are a better listener now, than then.
I lost all respect for the Moody Blues when they ripped off Patrik Morantz
 
Before you spend a fortune on things that will expose and highlight deficiencies in your technique and approach, work on identifying deficiencies in your technique and approach. That is, put the horse in front of the cart.
Hi Supercreep and All! I'm certainly not one to take my comments all that seriously as I am an unknown wannabe in the masses.

I like too what gecko zzed said; "One of the confounding factors is that it is your brain and imagination that tells you what you are hearing, not your ears . . . something sounds good because you want it to, not because it is." I debate over the gap between the way I experience my music and interpreting the way others do and if my music is "worth it". How do I get an objective view? It's true where objectivity also comes from within.

Then Supercreep said; "
I guess what I'm driving at is that there needs to be a certain level of honesty in self-examination. The good news is that, on a certain level, you know when you're fooling yourself. In addition, if you honestly can't find anything wrong with your own work, you're not listening.

Cut out the BS and it's really about capturing a performance without letting gear and process (and ego, as Gecko rightly noted) getting in the way."

I'm trying to get around my ego and great advice. I'm a wannabe, but the paradox is I never performed guitar and singing in public until recent times and I'm 69 yrs young. To my big surprise the people at open mics were loving my music, even got a standing ovation once, and six different times people commenting I'm like Nick Drake, and one musician had me for their big Thanksgiving and Christmas celebrations to entertain his people. I got way to nervous. I wasn't paid so they didn't lose anything but bowed out gracefully. I had never heard of Nick Drake and looked him up and no way am I that good! I can't exactly say it was totally ego as to why I started a YouTube channel of my original music and a few covers. It takes courage for me to try my music out on the general public, so I chose YouTube. It could be my ego too as mentioned here, but I also want to try my songs out and maybe others might go this route too.

Why a YouTube channel? People liked my solo piano and I sold out my two albums (CD's) in 2007 at 3,500 copies and sold about 500 since by making them on my computer. I did so without a lot of public performing, two "concerts" ha! I raised money for Hurricane Katrina back then. I also played as background music at seven Judy Garland festivals. i wasn't on the list of attractions, just played and sold a very few of my CD's, but my CD's in the gift shop outsold the Judy Garland albums which surprised me. Two ladies with an entertainment company invited me to play, no pay but hotel and food and a free table to sell my music at the world's largest Wizard of Oz festival in Indiana. They also wanted my music in their 25th anniversary DVD which was an honor. I played to about 300 at the opening dinner the organizers and vendors attended and they wanted me back the next year, so a good sign.

I also have a lot of nice cards and letters I pinned to my apartment walls as positive affirmations, but really the affirmations must come from within. A person has to believe in themself in order to make the big leap to performing or recording, but where is the line between that and one's inflated ego as so wisely mentioned here. So I'm at the point of fulfilling my Bucket List to see if my music is worth it with my YouTube channel. I guess my ego is getting in the way as Supercreep and gecko zzed so wisely advised here. I only have 80 subscribers after 1 1/2 yrs on YouTube. I didn't advertise but still I should have many more than that by now. I also feel that the open mic crowd is supportive, friends and relatives of the performers, and sympathetic musicians, so open mics are not really the general public, although some of the general public will drop in and one open mic host said on the side several times to me that he saw random people stop then decide to sit down while I was playing, so I took that as a sign too. But what about ego, and the underlying factor if one really does know whether or not they are worth it -- as long as they set their ego aside. I like my own music very much but I'm finding it takes courage to go public. To a degree that's ego, but what constitutes "ego" and the difference between believing in oneself?

The help of a sympathetic one from this website has so generously remastered my videos who I think doesn't want me to name as others might think he is giving away his talents as a sound engineer. I am very fortunate in that regard and remastering you can get around things like Supercreep and some here mention about signal path and room characteristics. Well I should say you can't get around signal path but that's only my amateur view. I was amazed at an example a sound engineer gave where a musician called and played for him over the phone. He saved that recording for comparison to his engineering. It was phenomenal what he did with it! I learned about signal path with my solo piano recordings, but on a low budget, and that was when I had more money, I found out how important XLR cables are and to have good mics and a good digitizer. I got by with M-Box by Digidesign, Studio Projects B3 large diaphragm condenser mics, XLR cables, and a computer with Windows XP of the times, and ProTools recording software.

It took a lot of courage to spend that money and also in a package deal I got ProTools. I barely learned then when I was much younger how to do the bare minimum with it. This time, around 19 years later, I just had to avoid the complexity of that software and instead with my stimulus money got a Zoom Q8 camera where I wouldn't have to learn ProTools all over again and the generous one from here remastering, truly a godsend. I also still 19 years later have my same mics and cables and it has worked very well, at least technically ha!

Maybe for some who don't want to do the complexities of things maybe they can glean something from this. I have more original songs to post I've been holding back on letting good old diffidence creep in on myself. I'll post those too, and they are the songs those at the open mics liked too. I played first time in public at a coffeehouse that had me back 4 times in about a 9 month period. I did get handshakes and happy listeners but mainly playing to those visiting, playing different games, on their smartphones and laptops etc... I was background music. That was the general public, but only once the host said to me "We have a full house now." Now the series that coffeehouse had where they paid $20 and a free meal for 50 minutes of original only music to musicians the host chose has told my ego enough, yet I'm still keeping on ha!

I'm still hanging in there but not playing in public and haven't touched my guitar in 3 weeks, really bad, as diffidence especially crept in after a coffeehouse/restaurant had me play. It wasn't for any pay so I didn't risk things that way for the owner. I played for two hours at what the owner said would be peak time and during that time one couple sat for about 10 minutes, finnished their coffee, looked bored, and left. Another two, a mother and teen daughter, sat for 10 minutes, finished their coffee and pasteries and kind of grinned like they were trying to keep from laughing as they left. Maybe I'm of the "old hippie" syndrome to them and laughable... yet 4 people in two hours ha! the owner said I could come back on their Saturday open air stage as they have tables outdoors and musicians come for that, but for me nothing any time soon. I know, that those positive affirmations must come from within yet one must find some kind of balance between that and that objectivity about themself, and their signal path and room characteristics etc as so greatly advised here. Thanks for the great advice here. I hope I helped at least some. Kindest Regards, Winfred PS I see a paragraph underlined with a wavy red line and don't know what caused that and can't reverse it...
 
This thread may not be directed to you, so grains of salt are recommended.

Gear is nice. Having the right bit of kit for the right project is of supreme importance - whether it's a mic, a guitar, or a cymbal.

Having a well-treated room is important, too. A well-treated room is going to sound more open and balanced than an untreated one. Money spent on room treatment is generally money well-spent.

Now for the rub: If you have a tin ear, none of this is going to help you turn around a decent product.

If you don't have an ear for pitch, and your instruments are out of tune with themselves and other instruments, your recordings will suffer.

If you are a "producer", and don't have a knack for arrangement, or understand how to incorporate space and silence into an piece, your client's recordings will suffer.

If you are a musician in a band, and you lack the ability to transpose chords, use different inversions, or envision and arrange your parts as pieces of an ensemble, your recordings will suffer.

Before you spend a fortune on things that will expose and highlight deficiencies in your technique and approach, work on identifying deficiencies in your technique and approach. That is, put the horse in front of the cart.

With all of that said, you are in the right place to learn, and the world is full of internet know-it-alls just like me.

Jump in and make it happen.
Hi Supercreep!
Your post here is quite a few years old so maybe you won't see this. You sound like a very experienced musician who could really give good feedback. I'm a wannabe trying to see if my music is "worth it" to others besides myself and started a YouTube channel. I put one of my songs, "Natalie", in the showing off forum a few minutes ago. I was just browsing and found you. You are very knowledgeable and maybe you could give my song(s) a critique. I posted my original song, "Natalie" that I have with my YouTube channel at that forum. I don't know if I give a link to it on YouTube here if that's breaking the rules or not. If it is I understand of the moderator takes out the video window part of it and leaves my message here. I just want make it easy for you or anyone to click and listen and give me a crit and if you like it try to go to YouTube and give a like and subscribe as then YouTube will put me out more prominently. I think when the use advertising with your song that that is a good sign that they like it, right? Several of my songs have advertising from YouTube. Thanks for your insightful post here!
Carpe Diem
 
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