Guitar Rig 5: Getting a good lead solo tone (or any other amp sim)

SparkyNZ

New member
I have listened to loads of Youtube videos showing how fantastic various Petrucci/Vai/Satriania lead patches sound. I've downloaded them and no matter patch I use, I get tinny sound that is far from the warm tones heard in the Youtube videos.

I have tried various amp sims over the years but ultimately I give up in complete frustration.

I admit, I suck at playing but I don't feel encouraged to do so when the tone is bad.

Also tried numerous combinations over time:
+ Squier strat
+ Ibanez RG240
+ (Current) Squier strat + Noiseless Hot pickups
+ (Current) Waves Guitar Interface (active) DI box
+ M-Audio 44 Delta audio interface
+ (Current) Tascam US-2x2 audio interface

If somebody has had success in recording/playback of wonderful lead solo tones in the nature of Petrucci/Vai/Satch, would you please share some of your dry recordings with me (plus wet recordings for comparison)?

What I would love to do is play some 'good' dry recordings through GR5, my monitors/headphones and hear GR5 working well with these known patches. I would like to convince myself that the tinny/fizzy sounds I'm hearing are due to something I'm doing - and try a process of elimination.

I'm using a balanced XLR cable from my DI into the Tascam. I don't know if I should be using "Line or Mic" output on the DI or "Mic/Line or Inst" input on my Tascam. The DI is powered by 9V batteries so no mains power connection there.
 
A couple tricks I learned on my own and from searching, maybe can help you: 1) I just cannot reply on the plugin in alone. I also drop an EQ with a preamp feature on to the track. Some people use some type of compression plugin, but I use one of a couple from Tracks5. I forget the names now, but it doesn't matter. I find something with a gain control is best for me. 2) I often double track the guitar track. I usually pan one channel to about ten o'clock and then the other one at about 3 o'clock. And vise versa. I usually lower the volume on one of the cracks a bit so the sound leans in the direction I want it to go. 3) I drop a low pass filter on as well (Tracks Classic EQ works for me) to control the high end gain distortion. 4) Then it is matter of finding the sound and tone you personally want from the amp sim. That Satriani type sound I guess is from lots of gain.

That may not help 100% but I find that a couple of those items have helped me get a bigger sound that, to me, does not even sound much like an amp sim. Good luck.
 
Unless you've got to run 50' from the guitar to the interface, I'd skip the DI and record with a short-ish (10' or less) good quality 1/4" instrument cable from your guitar into the interface with it set on INST[rument]. Make sure you have a decent level (pre-fader metering in the DAW is what I use) and start with a good track. From that point, I'd just use your ears, start with a good hi-gain amp model and a distortion pedal, maybe a tiny bit of fuzz and forget presets unless you've found something that's really close.
 
Unless you've got to run 50' from the guitar to the interface, I'd skip the DI and record with a short-ish (10' or less) good quality 1/4" instrument cable from your guitar into the interface with it set on INST[rument]. Make sure you have a decent level (pre-fader metering in the DAW is what I use) and start with a good track. From that point, I'd just use your ears, start with a good hi-gain amp model and a distortion pedal, maybe a tiny bit of fuzz and forget presets unless you've found something that's really close.

The DI is supposed to match impedance too. If I remove the DI, I get awful muddy sound. In fact, the only thing I can record which sounds OK is metal rhythm guitar. That sounds fine wth the DI but muddy without.
 
Try using "woman tone" i.e. neck pickup only, bridge pickup only with the tone rolled off, or bridge and neck with the neck cranked and the bridge just turned up enough to add a little brightness. Also try compressor plug in with a couple of db gain reduction to help give sustain. Then eq like crazy to get where you want to be. That said, even a small solid state amp can often sound better for leads than just about any amp sim imho. If you have any overdrive pedals you can record thru them to give more tone also.
 
Let’s start with the recorded guitar and no plug-ins. Just record into Audacity or your DAW set to 24-bit and then with zero FX or normalization bounce your recorded guitar track to a non-lossy file format like WAV. Put in SoundCloud or Dropbox and post the link here. Leave off the https through .com and we can download it.

If you want to humor me, use an instrument cable plugged into the combo jack and the switch set to INST and post that too.
 
Let’s start with the recorded guitar and no plug-ins. Just record into Audacity or your DAW set to 24-bit and then with zero FX or normalization bounce your recorded guitar track to a non-lossy file format like WAV. Put in SoundCloud or Dropbox and post the link here. Leave off the https through .com and we can download it.

If you want to humor me, use an instrument cable plugged into the combo jack and the switch set to INST and post that too.

Thanks Keith. I'll give this a try this evening.
 
Let’s start with the recorded guitar and no plug-ins. Just record into Audacity or your DAW set to 24-bit and then with zero FX or normalization bounce your recorded guitar track to a non-lossy file format like WAV. Put in SoundCloud or Dropbox and post the link here. Leave off the https through .com and we can download it.

If you want to humor me, use an instrument cable plugged into the combo jack and the switch set to INST and post that too.

Hi Keith. Here are some recordings of me badly playing some notes. Real bad. Feels like stage fright but I'll get over it. :-)

com/paul-spark-254099429/sets/homerecording-test

Just add the https, soundcloud and dot to the address.

1-No DI INST.wav - INST switch setting on the Tascam, using 1/4" jack direct from guitar
2-No DI MIC LINE.wav - MIC/LINE switch setting on the Tascam, using 1/4" jack direct from guitar
3-DI INST.wav - Waves Guitar Interface, XLR into Tascam, INST switch setting on Tascam
4-DI MIC LINE.wav - Waves Guitar Interface, XLR into Tascam, MIC/LINE switch setting on Tascam

Update: I just flicked the switch on the back of my DI from "Line" to "Mic" and there's been a massive drop in noise. A bit fiddle with GR5 and it sounds nicer.. but tends to have that same tinny/fizzy sound quality though.
 
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If you enable the download option (middle tab in SC track settings) it might be a little more informative, so we're not listening to SC's 128k stream, but I can hear the difference from switching from INST to LINE without the DI, which probably just pads the input and changes the impedance.

I don't think there's a difference in the XLR input, i.e., using the DI, because that switch typically only changes how the 1/4" input is treated. Unless your guitar is causing the PEAK light to come one, I would always use the TRS part of the combo jack without the DI.

What pickup are you using? Neck or middle? Tone and volume all the way up? Not sure I'd call it "tinny/fizzy" but it is a little tentative, so not going to really drive the "amp" (patch) the way you might want.

I don't play anything close to that style, but my experience is that a lot of any kind of iconic style and tone rely a lot on technique, even if it seems the amp/fx are doing a fair amount of the heavy lifting. I mean, you can't take some rockabilly guitar track and slap a death metal patch on it and think it's going to sound like the latter. So, maybe using something like a modeling amp or floorboard (i.e., vs Guitar Rig), where you can just twist knobs and get immediate feedback on how those changes impact/interact with your playing might be worth looking into? (When I go back and listen to some of the electric noodles I did when I was playing around with that more, I have to say I liked the higher gain stuff I was doing through a POD HD and even a Tech 21 amp vs. the DAW+plugin route. Even now, for the tiny bit of electric I've done in the past year, I find it easier to record the guitar amp and then use the DAW strictly to do a bit more shaping or enhance compression and sometimes delay.)
 
If you enable the download option (middle tab in SC track settings) it might be a little more informative, so we're not listening to SC's 128k stream, but I can hear the difference from switching from INST to LINE without the DI, which probably just pads the input and changes the impedance.
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What pickup are you using? Neck or middle? Tone and volume all the way up? Not sure I'd call it "tinny/fizzy" but it is a little tentative, so not going to really drive the "amp" (patch) the way you might want.

Sorry, I had a look at my Soundcloud settings and I couldn't find what you are referring to. First time I've used Soundcloud and I only have a free (non-Pro) account.

I used the neck pickup for those notes with the volume turned right up on the guitar. I've never really found the tone knobs do much on my guitar but I did find setting the middle knob to 5 took some of the high frequency tinniness off the resulting tone which was good. It has to be said, I was quite pleased with some of the tones I was fiddling with lastnight but the minute I add a distortion box of any sort to give me some sustain, the icky sound is back. I realise a lot of "extremely long" notes are induced by feedback with the likes of Satriani etc but I am focussing on notes that may last a 1-2 bars, not 4-9 bars of feedback. :-)

I'd still like to get hold of some dry recordings in the style I'm after. If I hear the sound I want from those then that should discount the DAW, plugins and speaker/headphone hardware at least. I realise that the output chain depends upon the dry input it would be good exercise and give me peace of mind as to where I should be looking. The problem I'm facing the Youtubers is that once they've recorded their videos, they don't have their dry recordings anymore. :)
 
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I'd still like to get hold of some dry recordings in the style I'm after. If I hear the sound I want from those then that should discount the DAW, plugins and speaker/headphone hardware at least. I realise that the output chain depends upon the dry input it would be good exercise and give me peace of mind as to where I should be looking. The problem I'm facing the Youtubers is that once they've recorded their videos, they don't have their dry recordings anymore. :)
I might be mistaken but I assumed most of those players used high output humbucker type guitars for this music. At the least, sticking a boost or tube driver (pedal sims) in front of the amp sim might give the amp more of what it's looking for. Distortion is going to give you that buzzy sound that might be fizzy, depending on what's in front of it or after, or the quality of the sim(s) of course. They can be quite sensitive to the level (gain), so your choice of guitar might be part of the equation that's keeping someone else's presets from giving you what you're looking for.

When I was using the POD HD every week for a few years, I really found presets to be as much or more work than just figuring it out myself. There are a lot of variables and it's your own chain and ears that you have to learn how to use.
 
I might be mistaken but I assumed most of those players used high output humbucker type guitars for this music. At the least, sticking a boost or tube driver (pedal sims) in front of the amp sim might give the amp more of what it's looking for. Distortion is going to give you that buzzy sound that might be fizzy, depending on what's in front of it or after, or the quality of the sim(s) of course. They can be quite sensitive to the level (gain), so your choice of guitar might be part of the equation that's keeping someone else's presets from giving you what you're looking for.

I bought a new set of strings to throw on my RG240 - it has humbuckers so I can give that try too.

When you're referring to "boost or tube driver (pedal sims) in front of the amp sim" do you mean physical hardware devices before the audio interface or plugins within the DAW?
 
I believe Keith was referring to external pedals such as overdrive or tube screamer etc. If you are looking to get more sustain without distortion I would suggest adding a delay to the tones that you do like instead of a bunch of distortion. The Delay pedal in guitar rig should help you achieve that singing type lead without using huge amounts of distortion. Also you can use an overdrive pedal simulation in GR before the amp and dial the amp gain back. I think you will find using the sim pedals( Phase, flange, delay, overdrive, etc.) along with your sim amp will help you get a lot closer. Another thing that can help is playing while monitoring through a speaker if you can do it with minimum latency. The interaction between guitar and speaker is a big part of getting a decent lead sound IMHO
 
I bought a new set of strings to throw on my RG240 - it has humbuckers so I can give that try too.

When you're referring to "boost or tube driver (pedal sims) in front of the amp sim" do you mean physical hardware devices before the audio interface or plugins within the DAW?
I was talking about sims, but you know, in recording, you try whatever you have at hand. Don't be afraid to stack amps or duplicate the track and go through a different amp, or even stack amps. (Talking sim/plugins here.)
 
Another thing that can help is playing while monitoring through a speaker if you can do it with minimum latency. The interaction between guitar and speaker is a big part of getting a decent lead sound IMHO

Thanks again guys. I'll give the other pedals a go. I do tend to like reverb for these singing tones but I'll see what gives with the others. In order to hear what I'm recording I listen to the DAW's processed output on my headphones mostly. I find the headphones a bit easier when trying to nail riffs as opposed to monitor speakers - just makes me feel "a bit closer" to the sound I guess.

FYI I did use to have a Line 6 AX2 many years ago. There were a couple of presets I liked on that amp. Reverb always seemed to be my friend and it seemed so much easier to get the sound out of that beast - I never recorded anything with it but an actual amp just seems to be so much easier in getting tone. Actually I do recall one time when I connected the "Amp sim" output into a DAW for the first time and it scared me away at how awful it sounded. I started reading about micing amps and the likes.. It all just got too hard. In fact I was close to putting the amp with a mic in a different room or cupboard so I could only hear what the DAW was giving me and not the amp. Fingers crossed I'll get there with the direct approach. Nowadays I compose music with VSTis but I have the urge to record guitar and vocals.
 
I have guitar rig 5 also, and I use a USB to1/4 inch guitar cord and interface it with Mixcraft 8 pro, and use the Native instrument Guitar rig 5 through it, and find many of the guitar presets to be very tinny, and sound like thier coming through a transister radio. Let me know what fix you found to clean up the excess noise as I have the same issues with my system.
 
I have guitar rig 5 also, and I use a USB to1/4 inch guitar cord and interface it with Mixcraft 8 pro, and use the Native instrument Guitar rig 5 through it, and find many of the guitar presets to be very tinny, and sound like thier coming through a transister radio. Let me know what fix you found to clean up the excess noise as I have the same issues with my system.

I'd more than happily share my solution once I find it. I've just ordered one of those cheap Joyo American amp sim pedals to see if that makes any difference. Seem to be a lot of people claiming that you get better amp sim modelling outside of the DAW but I have yet to see it.. Who knows.

Today I'm going to pull out my Ibanez RG240 from the depts, re-string and see if I can get any better sound out of that. I have managed to get 'better' sounds out of GR5 and Squier but it still has that 'transistor' sound at the end of the day. I also installed Amplitube 4 demo but suspect it will yield similar results. I spent hours with Amplitude 2/GR3 a few years ago and gave up. It was just easier for me to ditch lead guitar altogether and use synths.. but.. synth isn't lead guitar :-(

The frustrating thing about this 'quest for nominal lead tone' is that I keep spending hours tweaking instead of actually composing. Once I find the sound I'll be happy. Maybe it will be a JOYOus occasion but we'll have to wait a few weeks to try that one.

Are you directly connecting your guitar into your audio interface?

I've tried:
- Direct guitar to audio interface
- Guitar into DI box, then to audio interface
- Guitar into Behringer mixer, then to audio interface

I did get some dry recordings from somebody to play with. Perhaps check them out yourself and see what you find:

DI - Google Drive

Although these recordings are better than what I would have done myself and are slightly different style to what I'm after, GR5 still has that tinny sound to it.

Give the dry recording a go yourself and share your thoughts.

The other thing I might try is playing with a parametric EQ to see if I can find the evil frequency range that causes this and remove it. However, the EQ may be needed on the input or the output to GR5. I finally have a day off so I'll start tweaking once the dog is walked! :-)
 
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