Gain on an AI...how much is enough

Steenamaroo said:
If your tracks permanently have loud audio on them, sure.
If, like in the real world, you have gaps, pauses, breaks, periods of silence, fades, etc, accumulative hiss is a problem.

It just means you're forced to a: put up with it, b: noise gate everything, or c: manually edit out any problem areas.

If you're thinking, psssh, that'll never happen, go ahead and buy a noisy preamp. ;)
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I undoubtedly will. :facepalm:
 
mjbphotos said:
Isn't he looking for an AI, not a preamp?
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Well yeah man, but there are options, questions, and more options.

You should read the posts. Well, there are some you may wish to pass up, but they are kinda funny. :)

The thread has been derailed for sure.

The bottom line is that the OP is going to make his decision irregardless of any experienced members suggest. Just one of those guys it seems.
 
Well, he wants a capable interface. Doesn't have a lot of money. Likes to buy new, but I don't know if he's bought anything. If he heeds the preamp advice, the TPS has helped many people. Leadin' up to the holidays in 2010, I was a only eBait bidder on a DPS for $99.00. Well worth the $$ for me
 
garww said:
Well, he wants a capable interface. Doesn't have a lot of money. Likes to buy new, but I don't know if he's bought anything. If he heeds the preamp advice, the TPS has helped many people. Leadin' up to the holidays in 2010, I was a only eBait bidder on a DPS for $99.00. Well worth the $$ for me
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ART DPS was cooler. Well the DPSII anyway as it had a digital out. Sold that one quick for $50. The TPS has only analog outs. But free if the dood wants more gain. Blah blah. Not sure neither I or it will care anyway...
 
jimmys69 said:
ART DPS was cooler. Well the DPSII anyway as it had a digital out. Sold that one quick for $50. The TPS has only analog outs. But free if the dood wants more gain. Blah blah. Not sure neither I or it will care anyway...
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For myself, I wasn't needing a preamp, but I wanted that digital thing to double my tracking count. Second was that I can insert( line-in ) just before the Dig. section. He can rub the TPS into his Realtek !!!
 
jimmys69 said:
Wait, what did that mean? Did I miss something? Was the 'Golden Age' preamp mentioned in this thread? Why was it over priced?

Sorry if it was...

But we still now have the discussion of running a preamp line level outs in to an AI with preamps that do not have line level inputs. Unless they have a line input, then you are dealing with a second stage of gain on the way in.

So my question to others is why that is an issue. I know that I do not have any issue with my gear, but I could see that possibly being a bad idea with a low end interface with only mic inputs.

I really am questioning here for others as I do not have the issue with my current setup. Actually didn't with my previous interface (TASCAM US1800) as it had separate line inputs. I now have UR824's that do not have actual 'line inputs'. But they do have a -26Db pad that seems to work fine with external preamps. Plus the interface preamps have lots of clean gain to begin with...


This is a discussion that has happened over and over. But it seems it is time for a new one. Products change, opinions change, members change...

Next! :)
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It's tricky Jim! The first stumbling block is that the 'line' feeds will differ, as will the AI mic amps AS will the way they interact to a degree (Zins, Zout and all that swaddlin')

You 824s DO in fact have line inputs and the block diagram shows they are configured as I suspect most other AI line/mic ins are? The main difference being that the attenuator pad is user operable. Generally it is automatic with jack insertion, makes for greater versatility!

The gritty-nitty tho' is HOW good are the mic pres following the attenuation? In your case you say very good. Unfortunately Steinberg (to my surprise!) give a rather confusing specification of just 'dynamic range' and A weighted at that. Taking their figure of +18dBu as max output that gives a noise OP of -67dBu (A wtd) which is in fact very close to physical limits, i.e. BLOODY GOOD! So. that mic pre is not going to degrade the noise performance of a (say) +4dBu by any noticeable amount. In any case, where do 'line' signals come from?

We have mentioned another pre amp. Well THAT will dirty the signal up a bit and the Steinberg will make jack diff there. What else has a line OP?
Synth? Figures are hard to find but I should be VERY surprised to find the gash Yammy piano with a better than -70dB S/N?
Line out on a guitar amp or load box? You gotta be fekkin' joking!

So, find me a line level source with a -100dB S/N and then we might start to condemn the 824 and all the other AIs and mixer that use the 'pad before mic amp' technique to derive a line input.

Butty but, but. HOW else to do it? The idea of a separate line amplifier switched in post the mic pre stage seems attractive? Well think on. The common (aka cheap) 4x 10k opamp balanced line amp with unity gain has a noise output some 15dB WORSE than the same op amp configured as an UNbalanced amplifier. In fact we need to use at least FIVE opamp stages and some fancy buffering and summing techniques to get even close to the UBal noise performance.

Bottom line. Given a decently low noise mic pre, an attenuator before it makes the best sense until you get into stratospheric levels of specc's and even higher prices! And you STILL gotta find me that 'noiseless' line source!

Dave.
 
jimmys69 said:
Well yeah man, but there are options, questions, and more options.

You should read the posts. Well, there are some you may wish to pass up, but they are kinda funny. :)

The thread has been derailed for sure.

The bottom line is that the OP is going to make his decision irregardless of any experienced members suggest. Just one of those guys it seems.
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I read everything in this thread from the start.

What hasn't been qualified (because the thread was all about 'gain'), is 1) how many simultaneous channels do you need/how many mic preamps; 2) what's the budget.

I think any of the standard AIs recommended here - Scarlett, Steinberg, Tascam, etc are going to be fine for his use - gain/lack of gain would never be an issue.
 
Ya, the standard fare in the $250 +/- range. He may yet go for the 4-chan. Behringer when he gets that most of that stuff in print is garbage. I dunno how much I would trust Behringer with drivers, though: )

I like having one buss-powered USB around, but I'd be up a crick without any of my old PCI cards
 
jimmys69 said:
Well yeah man, but there are options, questions, and more options.

You should read the posts. Well, there are some you may wish to pass up, but they are kinda funny. :)

The thread has been derailed for sure.

The bottom line is that the OP is going to make his decision irregardless of any experienced members suggest. Just one of those guys it seems.
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Not that I wasn't already aware of this, but wow what a flaming ahole you are. Just one of those guys it seems.
 
joey2000 said:
Not that I wasn't already aware of this, but wow what a flaming ahole you are. Just one of those guys it seems.
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I just saw this. Hmm....

Sorry I offered a free preamp to you...

I am taking myself out of the equation right now. Wish the best to you joey.
 
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You're looking at it wrong. Numbers mean nothing--until the mastering stage but another story. At the AI stage you only want gain before distortion. So if you're AI doesnt have good monitoring you'll have to use your ears. Most gain without peak distortion. After that, once inside your DAW you may need makeup gain. Many ways to do that.
 
zepfan59 said:
You're looking at it wrong. Numbers mean nothing--until the mastering stage but another story. At the AI stage you only want gain before distortion. So if you're AI doesnt have good monitoring you'll have to use your ears. Most gain without peak distortion. After that, once inside your DAW you may need makeup gain. Many ways to do that.
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There is also... Oh hell, I'll let someone else do this. I am done here. There is noise to consider and I have enough of that already...
 
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