Gain on an AI...how much is enough

[joey2000]

The short answer I'm sure is "it depends," but generally speaking, I'm wondering about people's experiences and the good/bad/ugly with various AIs. Did you run into issues, and if so, how much gain did you have that didn't seem quite adequate? It seems most have at least 45-50db with most in the 50-55 range and a few up around 60 (I've yet to see any in the mid- to lower-price range more than 60). It seems this is mostly if not entirely an issue or concern with mics, yes? And of course what kind of mic and what specific mic you have will also make a diff on your needs.

I guess I'm wondering is there a level you think one should aim for that would cover "most needs?" And how much of a diff is that extra 5-10db ish likely to make? Somewhere I read you should try to get at least 60 as some mics will need it.

 

[garww]

The spec don't mean much by itself.

As a recording amp, it should have low distortion & noise through its rating, but a lot of people don't see that

I would look for a solid 60-70dB WARM, Golden Age, ISA One, whatever and not rely on a AI. You can also stage a stereo preamp one chan into the other

 

[Steenamaroo]

Mostly a concern with mics, yes, but the source comes into it.

A snare on a 57 is going to be fine on a lower gain interface, but the same probably can't be said for whispering vocal.
If you don't make a habit of recording moderate sources with dynamics it doesn't matter much.
If you do, shoot for 60+.

 

[joey2000]

Bottom line I want it there if I need it: 60+ does seem to be rare on the less expensive models, but not by much. Is there really that much diff between 55 and 60?

 

[garww]

55 won't do you any good if you need 56

My better interface spec +10 to +58
here's my preamp spec;

 

[Steenamaroo]

Bottom line I want it there if I need it: 60+ does seem to be rare on the less expensive models, but not by much. Is there really that much diff between 55 and 60?

Honestly, I can't answer that.
I'm not even 100% sure what gain my preamps have because they're all pulled console modules.
'Shitloads' was the most accurate measurement I ever got.

 

[garww]

"'Shitloads' was the most accurate measurement I ever got".

There is NO substitute

 

[Steenamaroo]

"'Shitloads' was the most accurate measurement I ever got".

There is NO substitute

Hey Garww,
How would I go about measuring that, do you know?

Edit: Metric Shitloads*

 

[joey2000]

Honestly, I can't answer that.
I'm not even 100% sure what gain my preamps have because they're all pulled console modules.
'Shitloads' was the most accurate measurement I ever got.

Dynamic mic snob.

 

[joey2000]

 

[garww]

I think its a ribbon MIC recording the movement of a quartz watch

 

[Steenamaroo]

Dynamic mic snob.

Believe it, brah!

I have d12, d112, md421n(x2), sm7b, re20, re11, do54(x4),sm56,sm57,sm58,635a(x4) and a token NT1a.

But yeah...shit hot preamps.

 

[gecko zzed]

On my interface (Firepod), I plug a mike in and wind the gain up to about 2 o'clock. Unless I am miking something extra loud (like a kit), that's my go-to setting, and it accommodates whatever I need to do. Of course, the recorded signal will vary in volume according to the volume of the source. But that's all taken care of in the mixing.

 

[ecc83]

It depends what you are recording on.
If feeding a computer and especially at 24bits, the level going in matters little (tho' noobs have a problem seeing this) because the DAW will make not a jot difference to the final signal to noise ratio.

Recording to tape is however rather different. A good low noise pre amp will be 10dB or even more quieter than tape hiss so unless you get a good level to start with you are a bit stuffed.

Then, (and I'll stick with 'puters now!) 'Gain' in dB is not really much use as figure for an AI. What we really need to know is the VOLTAGE (or dBu) required to give a stated level in the DAW. XmV (or X dBu) for -18dBFS would be great. Then you can easily see the level any specific mic will produce.

Then! There is overload to consider. The USB bus powered AI will not have a lot of headroom compared to a good outboard pre amp but on consideration I think it better to have highish gain (and really low noise) than low because IF you buy a ripsnorting LDC you can always use attenuators. Much cheaper than Cloudlifters!

Dave.

 

[garww]

Ya, recording your acoustic blues 12-string close up, or, 3-foot, 5/6-foot away isn't a easy choice. Or, is it : )

 

[gecko zzed]

Ya, recording your acoustic blues 12-string close up, or, 3-foot, 5/6-foot away isn't a easy choice. Or, is it : )

Easy choice, I reckon. If you know your instrument, know the capabilities of your equipment, and know the sound that you are after, you don't have to worry too much. You just do it.

And if you know none of these things, it is still easy. It is simply a matter of trying out positions to see which gives you what you want.

 

[mjbphotos]

I've never heard anyone complain about not enough gain on their AI except newbies who don't realize that tracking in the -18 to -12dBFS range is all that is needed.

 

[ecc83]

I've never heard anyone complain about not enough gain on their AI except newbies who don't realize that tracking in the -18 to -12dBFS range is all that is needed.

+1 And on a related subject, almost all instrument inputs have too MUCH gain and many of them cannot cope with a hot humbucker.

AIs have been cheapened and paired down since the days of the M-Audio Fast track pro, a very decent 'starter' interface which had MIDI I/O S/PDIF and a pad! Even had those rare beasts? Inserts!

Yes, modern AIs are better now for noise and converter quality (and a few have lower latency) but they are far less versatile than they were.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

Is there really that much diff between 55 and 60?

Ahhh....5?

That was hard to resist.

I've never heard anyone complain about not enough gain on their AI except newbies who don't realize that tracking in the -18 to -12dBFS range is all that is needed.

The whole AI thing can cloud the issue/consideration.
If you just consider the preamp portion, and forget the AI for a moment...it is possible that for some mics/applications a low gain preamp just doesn't suit the mic...and/or if your dealing with some sort of tube-based situation, the gain can be used to drive the signal hotter for a tonal reason.
In these combi AI situations, it's not always apparent where the preamp stops and the converter begins...so the metering and the gain options could mean/do different things, depending where they are in the circuit....but these are really two separate gain/level considerations...though in the combi units, often lumped into one.

In a pure mic-preamp scenario... the choice of gains may not always be simply about hitting a target level. It may also be about shaping the character/tone...and then you go to your converters where you adj9ust its level for that optimum digital signal range.

Anyway...with some mics, 50dB gain may not always get you in the sweet spot....again, strictly speaking about the mic-preamp relationship...not what the converter/digital wants to see.

 

[garww]

Well, they can have a 3-position hardware switch that might represent the input trim depending on the MICs output.

"'Ahhh....5?

That was hard to resist. "

but 5db is almost 6. and I'm not sure the poster gets the decibel thing

Anyway, wouldn't one just investigate what the better interfaces and amps spec at and try to find something close in the bargain basement.

I think I said my best interface is +10 to +58, which is fine for most everything, 'til I want more. Further, I don't like it cranked one bit. What gain range is that ? 53 to 58 ???? : )