Downwards Expansion -best buy for hardware Expander?

Thrip

New member
It was on this blog that I first learned about the book "Guerrilla Home Recording" by Karl Coryat.

He's convinced me that an Expander can improve my productions in his book.

My local music store has a couple of hardware makes under $300.00.

-Can anyone recommend a best-value expander ?

Apparently this "downwards expansion" can really improve a recordings S/N ratio.

Any opinions re this and the "Guerrilla Home Recording" approach would be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Thrip
 
'Cautiously.. asks; Why do you (or do you ..?) have noise problems?

and.. or.. Why the heck would you even want to try to fix this in hardware -yikes, let alone cheap hardware?
:confused: and cheers' :)
 
Re downwards expansion & best buy hardware expander;

"GUERRILLA HOME RECORDING -Second Edition HOW TO GET GREAT SOUND FROM ANY STUDIO (no matter how weird or cheap your gear is)" by Karl Coryat is a book that suggests alternative recording approaches to audio recording for those with limited means (hopefully so as to achieve professional quality results). - The use of an Expander is recommended in an innovative application, -not to "fix" anything.

-What I really like about this book so far is that it goes into analogue & digital gear, I.T.B. & old school hardware -the combination of.

In Chapter 1: What is Guerrilla Home Recording? he has a list; "Gear That Really, Really Helps" where it begins ( -I paraphrase;) "As you may of figured out, this book is not about upgrading to latest, greatest gear. You can make outstanding rec. using inexpensive or outdated gear; Your ears & approach are your most important tools. -There are a few pieces of hardware that I think are important in creating a good rec." -Then he goes on to list 7 items, "At least two mics, Some kind of mic preamp or mixing board, Direct Box, Compressor, Expander, One good reverb, & One good pair of headphones". -Under "Expander" he states (again I paraphrase) "an expander will greatly clean up your recording by eliminating hum & other noise when no signal is present. An expander is the Guerrilla recordist's secret weapon; people will be amazed by how quiet the spaces are between those huge power chords you rec. A noise gate is a heavy-handed type of expander; not as flexible as true expanders so I don't recommend them" (expanders discussed in Ch. 3 & 4.)

On page 25 in Ch. 2: "Principles Guerrilla Recordist Need To Know" -under "Equalization" -he states, "Equalization is one of of the Guerrilla recordist's best friends, along with compression and expansion (see Ch 4)

On page 53 in Ch. 3 "A Guided Tour Of The Signal Chain" re "Mixer Inserts" he says to the effect, "When tracking I use the insert on practically every signal that goes into my board, using the insert to run the signal through a compressor/expander followed by a 31-band graphic EQ, which is normally set to bypass mode."

On pages 79 - 85 in Ch. 4 "Controlling Dynamics" -"Even with today's inexpensive rec. systems it's possible to achieve a dynamic range of over 90dB. (-from background noise to 90 decibels) Managing the area between these two extremes for each sound you record is a skill that's critical to making a good sound recording. Fortunately there are devices called expanders, compressors, and limiters (called dynamic processors) that help in this task. -Then under "Using An Expander" he states, "A lot of people record without using an expander in the signal chain, and I think that's a shame, because effective use of an expander can do an awful lot to clean up the tracks that you record." -Further he says, Expansion refers to the process of increasing a signal's dynamic range, when audio is coming through the signal chain, the expander may be doing nothing at all, -but when that audio stops coming through, the expander goes to work by lowering the signal further, expanding the background noise floor downward so that there's a larger dynamic range overall, -this is called "downward expansion" - An expander is important in optimizing the actual dynamic range you get out of a system."

-As to, Why not just use an Expander Plug-in?, (aside from the fact that I currently don't work with a DAW or even own a computer) -on the top of page 82 it reads, "LOOK OUT!" re "Real-Time Dynamics Processing Plug-Ins" -"compresssor and/or expander plug-ins available to use within your digital system can be useful in some situations -but unless you have a lot of experience working with *real* compressors & expanders, wherever possible, use hardware versions of these effects instead. -When setting up a signal chain, you need to be able to hear what a dynamics processor is doing in real time -and see what what it's doing by way of indicator LEDs -so you can tweak the unit's parameters before you start recording, (and without your recording system in the signal chain). -Depending on your system, you may not be able to do this with a plug-in, -digital plug-ins are great for a lot of things, but learning how to apply compression & expansion isn't one of them..

More is mentioned re Expanders or Expansion on page 153 re recording Syth Bass & Other Synth Sounds, page 156 re adjusting the expander settings, and page 161 re expansion for voice-overs, pop-culture sound bites, & other sound effects in songs.

As this "Guerrilla Home Recording" is a fairly popular book & expansion a somewhat common practice in audio recording, -surely there'd be someone out there familiar who would know what this is all about.

I'm just trying to determine (apart from a salesperson's perspective) just how much of a hardware expander I should invest in.

-Does any one have an outboard expander they can recommend ?

Thanks for your time & consideration
 
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What are you recording? What gear do you have now, and how are you recording (DAW, etc)? Do you have a noise problem in your your recordings? An expander is a noise gate with a little more - attack, decay and hold settings.

This book was published 7 years ago - and the author admits that he has switched over to digital recording now, so many of his comments (mix as you go) don't apply.
One review on Amazon said "The title of this book is somewhat inaccurate, since it doesn't really cover a wide variety of types of studio gear or types of recording. Rather, reading this book is more like spending several hours in the particular studio of one patient, experienced home recordist who is generous with his time in explaining, engagingly, his own set-up and how he uses it."
 
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.. "A lot of people record without using an expander in the signal chain, and I think that's a shame, because effective use of an expander can do an awful lot to clean up the tracks that you record." -
[cut]
.. when audio is coming through the signal chain, the expander may be doing nothing at all, -but when that audio stops coming through, the expander goes to work by lowering the signal further, expanding the background noise floor downward so that there's a larger dynamic range overall ..
That's well and good...

-As to, Why not just use an Expander Plug-in?, (aside from the fact that I currently don't work with a DAW or even own a computer)..
But this would not over ride the good reasons you typically would not do it 'on the way in, and that is you can set it up to do a better job, in the leisure of the mix!

-on the top of page 82 it reads, "LOOK OUT!" re "Real-Time Dynamics Processing Plug-Ins" -"compresssor and/or expander plug-ins available to use within your digital system can be useful in some situations -but unless you have a lot of experience working with *real* compressors & expanders, wherever possible, use hardware versions of these effects instead. -When setting up a signal chain, you need to be able to hear what a dynamics processor is doing in real time -and see what what it's doing
This misses the point above also. Do it in the mix = concentrate on good capture, leave this stuff for during the mix.

I'm just trying to determine (apart from a salesperson's perspective) just how much of a hardware expander I should invest in.

-Does any one have an outboard expander they can recommend ?

Thanks for your time & consideration
I don't, but there are others here that mix/record analog :)
But you still didn't answer- Do you have these kinds of noise problems you're fighting?

On page 53 in Ch. 3 "A Guided Tour Of The Signal Chain" re "Mixer Inserts" he says to the effect, "When tracking I use the insert on practically every signal that goes into my board, using the insert to run the signal through a compressor/expander followed by a 31-band graphic EQ, which is normally set to bypass mode."
One other point / 'camp would be- Consider that the least amount of 'stuff used to get there' = your cleanest (and lowest noise) shot at capture.
 
^^^What these guys said^^^
I think you've glommed on to a solution to a problem you probably don't have, or at least can mitigate with proper tracking.
 
Thanks for the up to date feed-back.

I'm rec. with a Radar 24, Grace M101 pres, -but with only an Allen & Heath ZED 24FX analogue mixer, SM 57s, & SM 58s & a Rodes NT1-A.

-As I'm still struggling to pay off my two Grace Design pres, -I won't be able to get a computer for some time, -nor do I have a recording environment worth talking about acoustically wise. This "Guerrilla" approach of Karl's seems to answer my current predicament. -I'm just looking at any cheaper ways that I can track & mix cleaner in the mean time. -That's why this expander idea has such a great appeal.
 
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What's a 'Radar 24' - a stand-alone recorder? $300 for an 'expander' - you can pick up a computer for that, or just a little more if you need a video monitor, too!
 
An expander is a noise gate with a little more - attack, decay and hold settings."
Some noise gates have those controls too. The real difference is the Ratio control. A noise gate is basically an expander with 1:infinity ratio. A "real" expander can make the quieter parts even quieter without making them silent.

Otherwise, I agree with everybody else. This is a half-assed solution to a problem that you may not even have. You might could use some more sensitive mics (58s and 57s are pretty week), but there's no noise problem in an A&H board, and Radar is pretty damn good too. If your room is noisy enough to really require an expander in the chain - whether while recording or mixing - then you should definitely deal with that some other way.

All that said, if you can find a used dbx286 like arcaxis mentioned, you'll have a pair of compressors and a pair of expanders in one rack space. They're not maybe super fancy, but they are very decent workhorse-type boxes.
 
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