Could the wrong +4 -10 setting damage my new monitors?

C

conanthewarrior

New member
Hello, I received my first set of studio monitors this morning, the JBL LSR305's and am loving them.

However, I have a question, which I need to know before I change anything incase I damage the speakers.

There is a setting for +4DbU, or -10DbV. -10DbV is much louder than +4, I only have to set the volume on my interface to around halfway for reasonable sound levels, while on +4 I have to have the interface output at near maximum for reasonable volume levels.

I spoke to the shop, and they said this is odd as +4DbU is unity, and should be louder. Both speakers are the same though, so maybe the switch is labelled wrong.

I really want to be able to listen at reasonable levels, and also crank things sometimes to check how my music sounds at louder volumes, so it seems -10DbV is the one to go for.

I'm not sure I should though, as I am using TRS to XLR leads which is a balanced connection? Is there any harm in setting it to -10DbV and leaving it there?

Thanks, Conan.
 
conanthewarrior said:
Hello, I received my first set of studio monitors this morning, the JBL LSR305's and am loving them.

However, I have a question, which I need to know before I change anything incase I damage the speakers.

There is a setting for +4DbU, or -10DbV. -10DbV is much louder than +4, I only have to set the volume on my interface to around halfway for reasonable sound levels, while on +4 I have to have the interface output at near maximum for reasonable volume levels.

I spoke to the shop, and they said this is odd as +4DbU is unity, and should be louder. Both speakers are the same though, so maybe the switch is labelled wrong.

I really want to be able to listen at reasonable levels, and also crank things sometimes to check how my music sounds at louder volumes, so it seems -10DbV is the one to go for.

I'm not sure I should though, as I am using TRS to XLR leads which is a balanced connection? Is there any harm in setting it to -10DbV and leaving it there?

Thanks, Conan.
Click to expand...

Hi,
The guy at the shop was wrong.
+4 and -10 describe the signal that the speaker receives.

Setting it to -10 should be louder, if the source doesn't change, because that presumes that the speaker is receiving a 'quieter' input signal and needs to compensate.

Your interface/hifi should tell you the output specs in the literature.

Your monitors should have their own volume controls on the back so it's probably a good idea to set -10/+4 to match your interface,
and then set the monitor volume controls such that your interface volume control is sensible/useful.

There's debate about that kind of gain staging but you can't really go wrong with the above.
I'm not sure if you'd harm the speakers, over time, with the wrong setting but best not to find out. ;)
 
Thank you, I had a feeling what he was saying might not have been true, and he was saying it to seem like he knew what he was talking about. I come across people like this all the time giving wrong information- I collect vaporisers, and used to review them direct from China. The things I have heard some shop workers has left me thinking they shouldn't even be near a vaporiser, let alone selling them.

I think the Focusrite is meant to be +4DbU for a balanced signal,but I will double check.

If I set to +4DbU, I have to max out the volume control on the back of the monitors to 10, and then crank the output on my interface to near maximum.

At -10 DbV, I can set the back of the monitors to around 8, and the volume on my interface to around half for normal listening. I then have a lot of headroom so I can crank them much higher if I want too.

So should I stick with -10, even if it may be suggested to be different? The guy on the phone said it was completely my choice and wouldn't damage the speakers but I'm unsure.
 
Honestly, that sounds like something is wrong, assuming you're correct that the focusrite output level is +4.

TRS to XLR should be balanced but it might be worth making sure.
If they aren't moulded ends you could screw them open and check, or use a multimeter to confirm if you have one.

What model is your focusrite?
 
Ok, I've spoken to Focusrite on the phone, I double checked and there was an error in their manual which stated balanced connections were +10dBU!

It isn't, the correct setting is -10dBV. +4 won't cause any harm, but will be much quieter. I phoned them to clarify things, they was very helpful.
 
Actually, the Focusrite spec is correct where it probably has something like 0dBFS = 10dBu (actually copied from the 2i2 spec).

The way you might interpret this is that +10dBu is the maximum level which can be output prior to clipping, i.e., anything higher than that will exceed 0dBFS, and be distorted. The non-standard standard is to subtract 20 from that level for the average/nominal (RMS) output, and then you get -10dBu. I.e., the input level on the monitor is stating a number to match to the average line level, while the spec for the interface output is stating a maximum. (If you get the impression these folks are not trying to make it simple for you, you wouldn't be alone in that feeling.)

Not every interface will state this output line level the same way, and they do vary, but unless the 0dBFS is something like 24dBu, you'll probably want to use the -10 setting. If you start to hear distortion, you've got it cranked too high, and you probably want to be using a SPL meter of some sort to watch the listening level anyway. There's no way you should hear distortion from those speakers at any safe listening level.
 
Ahh, I see. That makes sense, and I do get the feeling they are not making things simple for me.

I found the box for the Scarlett, and the manual. Guess what? It says +4dBV! Seeing as I am using them for monitoring, and not to wake the neighbours, I will keep them on that setting.

I haven't heard any distortion at all, apart from the loud clicks that I realised was likely the track. I haven't heard them on any other track, and have been testing them since I got them.

Very happy I got the 5's instead of the 8's- I think the 8's would have been far too bass heavy for me. These speakers sounds much bigger than they really are.

What SPL meter would you recommend on a budget? I used one on my phone, and 85dB seemed fairly loud, over 90 was extremely loud to me. Not sure how accurate it was though.
 
It's simply a matter of matching your input and output levels...not really about which setting to use for making things louder or softer (the volume knob takes care of that).
If you match...then the headroom thing is there in either +4 or -10 cases.

My monitors have both +4 and -10 choices.
My converters also have +4 and -10 choice.
I usually have most things set to +4 across my studio gear...BUT...not everything operates at +4.
When I want to patch the output from my internet laptop to my studio monitors, I have to turn up the volume because the laptop output is not at +4...so there's a weaker signal feeding them.
I just live with that and turn up the volume, because I only use the laptop occasionally...so I don't bother to switch the monitors, etc.
 
conanthewarrior said:
...
What SPL meter would you recommend on a budget? I used one on my phone, and 85dB seemed fairly loud, over 90 was extremely loud to me. Not sure how accurate it was though.
Click to expand...
It's probably not extremely accurate, but if you use the same app on the same phone in the same room, it's fine to get a sense of what is Ok, and to prevent things from getting too loud. 87 is about as loud as you probably want to get with a calibrated meter, which I don't have either! (It's on my list - now that the SM57 is knocked off, maybe I'll snoop around for one of those.)

P.S. Found this cheap one with good reviews:
Amazon.com: Decibel Meter,Meterk Digital Sound Level Meter, Range 30-130dB(A) Noise Volume Measuring Instrument Self-Calibrated Decibel Monitoring Tester(Battery Included): Home Improvement

It was in this article: The 4 Best SPL Meters – Decibel Meter Reviews 2018
 
keith.rogers said:
It's probably not extremely accurate, but if you use the same app on the same phone in the same room, it's fine to get a sense of what is Ok, and to prevent things from getting too loud. 87 is about as loud as you probably want to get with a calibrated meter, which I don't have either! (It's on my list - now that the SM57 is knocked off, maybe I'll snoop around for one of those.)

P.S. Found this cheap one with good reviews:
Amazon.com: Decibel Meter,Meterk Digital Sound Level Meter, Range 30-130dB(A) Noise Volume Measuring Instrument Self-Calibrated Decibel Monitoring Tester(Battery Included): Home Improvement

It was in this article: The 4 Best SPL Meters – Decibel Meter Reviews 2018
Click to expand...

For about $25...the Radio Shack SPL meter is just as good...and frankly, I prefer the analog one with the VU meter and needle for measuring/averaging the audio level, since it's not a constant steady sound, like a test tone.
I don't think RS sells the analog ones anymore, so you would have to look around, maybe find one at some surplus outlet or even used.
My analog RS meter has been working fine for the last 10+ years...and it does the job.
Also, because the REW analysis software includes a calibration file for the analog RS meter...I've used it to measure the REW frequency sweeps.

I'm sure some other meters can be fine too...but for the number of times you will need/use it...it's pointless to invest into something that is feature laden or costs much more.

[EDIT]

What's funny about that article "The 4 Best SPL Meters" that you kinked to...at the bottom, is included a video showing you how to use an SPL meter for audio...and the meter they use is the Radio Shack analog meter I was referring to! :D

Only thing...the guy in the video is not all that correct in how he's showing and what he's describing.

First off...you don't hold the meter in front of the speaker. :facepalm:
You place it on a stand (it has the screw hole just like a camera)...I just use my Slik camera stand...and you put it at your listening/mix position equally, center, same as you would sit. Holding it can introduce noises and mess with the accuracy.
Second...you don't use A weighting, which is meant for "industrial noise" measurement that is more focused in the speech range...you set it to C weighted which is more comparable to how our ears hear music and accounts for broadband audio.
Also...you don't use a sine wave...you use Pink noise, which also is balanced comparably as broadband music would be.

82 dB SPL is generally considered a good target value...and will allow for I think up to 8 hours of listening without fatigue.
You can push things up to 95 for momantry checking of mixes...and also you can turn things down to as low as 70 to check for low level listening...anything lower, you will probably miss a lot of the audio info...but everyone is different so find your comfort zone.
My TC Electronic Level Pilot has lines drawn that I put there to signify 75 to 95 levels, basically in 5 dB SPL increments. I did that with my trusty Radio Shack meter (the Level Pilot comes without any markings)...using C weighted Pink Noise.
My Mackie Big Knob also has no markings, I just haven't gotten around to calibrating it since I only use it when I want to A/B two sources or two monitors...which isn't too often.
 
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http://cpc.farnell.com/tenma/ten01075/sound-level-meter-mini-c-type/dp/IN05466?st=sound level meters

Took some finding! Most SPL meters are either fixed A weighted or expensive A/C jobs. Maplin did the above (have one, good enough for speaker calibration) but Maplin are gone now. Probably under $20 US.

The most important thing is to use the monitors at a known output day to day because your ears, even your mood can cause you to crank things "to taste" and give inconsistent results*. The level to calibrate to is moot but 83-85dBC is usual. That is quite a high SPL, if you have a 32"+ FSTV for instance it will probably run into distortion at or about 85dB and most of the family will shout "Turn that ****r down!"

So, you setup for 83dBC say at your mixing position and mark knobs and settings. You can then back off to say, 70-75dBC for most of the time but, as the situation allows, boost to the calibrated level for checks.

The gain staging. Generally best to set monitors for least gain (+4dBu) since that will give the lowest "self noise" (the hiss you can hear with Mk1 lug against the speaker) You should not hear ANY noise at your seat at ANY setting even in the dead of, but they ARE budget monitors.

*You might like to investigate what were once called "Fletcher Munson" curves, now "Equal loudness curves"? These show that the response of the human ear is far from "linear" with frequency ref level. ie.we don't hear bass nearly so well at a generally low SPL but it starts to dominated as levels go up. Same for HF to a lesser degree. COMPLICATED stuff this sound! Yay ago "hi fi" systems used to be fitted with a "loudness" control that was said to compensate for the curves. The science was very flimsy!

Dave.
 
Thank you for the help, I now know a lot more about SPL meters than I ever thought I would lol.

Now, with the apps I have tried (I have tried 10) most seem to be consistent, a few DB apart, while 3 are much higher. I'm not sure which to go with, as I don't want to be damaging my ears thinking I am at safe levels.

With the 7 apps that show lower readings, loud, but not loud enough to annoy neighbours, is around about 85-90dB. On the ones that read higher, it is more like 100. When I crank things higher, on the lower ones I get to the low 90's, while the others show up to 100dB.

The ones that average my listening at around 84dB, which feels comfortable, are the lower rated ones. Comfortable is over 90dB on the other meters.

So, which is likely correct? What feels comfortable in dB for most people? Up to 85 does for me. I understand the 85dB for 8 hours thing, so would like to set my monitors at, or below this if possible, as I quite like using my ears.
 
conanthewarrior said:
Thank you for the help, I now know a lot more about SPL meters than I ever thought I would lol.

Now, with the apps I have tried (I have tried 10) most seem to be consistent, a few DB apart, while 3 are much higher. I'm not sure which to go with, as I don't want to be damaging my ears thinking I am at safe levels.

With the 7 apps that show lower readings, loud, but not loud enough to annoy neighbours, is around about 85-90dB. On the ones that read higher, it is more like 100. When I crank things higher, on the lower ones I get to the low 90's, while the others show up to 100dB.

The ones that average my listening at around 84dB, which feels comfortable, are the lower rated ones. Comfortable is over 90dB on the other meters.

So, which is likely correct? What feels comfortable in dB for most people? Up to 85 does for me. I understand the 85dB for 8 hours thing, so would like to set my monitors at, or below this if possible, as I quite like using my ears.
Click to expand...

You are worrying quite unnecessarily IMO. The "85 dB SPL safe limit" is for INDUSTRIAL noise which is likely to have a very different spectral content from music. A press shop e.g. will be largely LF, a nut processing plant (been in one! Fekking deafening!) mostly HF and eve ultrasonics.
Then, it is NOT a simple "85dBA SPL" it is "Leq" a 'dose' levels of noise over an 8hr* period.

There is not research that I am aware of that suggests music sounds (and the way they are listened to, i.e. NOT 8 hrs at a stretch) are comparable to industrial noise.

You would have to sit affront of those monitors set at 90dB for hours and hours a day for months, probably years to get a measurable drop in hearing acuity. You are right however to be aware and bit concerned and the very first thing to do is get your ears checked BY A PROFESSIONAL. The NHS would be best but you won't get referred unless you have a problem (I have and was) You would have to get a private test AFAIK. But, if you are serious about this you need a "benchmark" The medical world frowns heavily on "self medication". Those that "self diagnose" have a t***t for a patient!

* I assume breaks and the SPL in the breaks area are put into the "equation" but this is a complex subject and best left to the pros!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
http://cpc.farnell.com/tenma/ten01075/sound-level-meter-mini-c-type/dp/IN05466?st=sound level meters

Took some finding! Most SPL meters are either fixed A weighted or expensive A/C jobs. Maplin did the above (have one, good enough for speaker calibration) but Maplin are gone now. Probably under $20 US. ...
Click to expand...
Couldn't find that exact one but here's an A-weighted one on Amazon that looks to be its twin.
Amazon.com: Parts Express Mini Digital Sound Level Meter: Home Improvement
 
Thank you all for the help and replies.

ECC83, I'm not really worried exactly, more that I wanted to ensure I had set everything up the best I possibly could. I read a few articles, this one mainly was the reason I was asking Why You Should Calibrate Your Studio Speakers : Ask.Audio

I set them up using the guide, and got it as best as I could with a few phone meters.

Thank you for explaining the levels are for industrial noise, and not music. I didn't actually know that. I really just wanted to be aware, I haven't got any hearing loss that I know of, I'm 28 years old, and when I was at college in the live rooms I would wear ear plugs as it could get very loud. I just was thinking for when I was older, as I want to enjoy music for as long as I can.

Keith.rogers, thank you for the link to the meter. I will save that in my bookmarks. First off I am going to sort my studio room out, as I have only just got the main parts I need. I'm getting parts as I go along, I now have everything that I need to record and make music, so have started doing so, but I do need to get some acoustic treatment for the room.
 
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