Bass editing and phase relationship with drums

b00n

Member
Hello everyone,
first posting in ere, so go easy on me.

I have a maybe stupid question,
right now I'm mixing a track that needs very heavy bass editing, as the bass does not lock at all with the drums.
So, I am getting into editing territory for the first time.
When editing that stuff, I use the "snap to transient" tool in Reaper to find edit points for bass and drums, and move the bass to the respective drum transient.
Now, does this provide me with phase identical transients for bass and drums?
Or should I flip phase for each transient and listen to, what sounds best?

This methodology (find transients here and there and align them) provides a slightly early feel for the bass,
so I guess I will end up nudging the bass track a little bit,
and flip phase to see if something improves,
are there any "rules of thump" (pun intended) for editing bass and drums?

tia,
b00n
 
My instinct is that trying to lock phase with two instruments that produce sound in two very different ways and at different distance is bollox! A drum head is not a "piston" it is a vibrating plate.

I mean, do bands move the bass cab or kit around to achieve this live?

But I await the 'sperts!

Dave.
 
It's always a good idea to try a polarity flip here and there. Sometimes it can make a difference for one reason or another. It only takes a second. I'm not sure that trying to do it by eye is worth the trouble. Any phase coherence between the drum and bass would be completely accidental IRL.
 
As said, phase doesn't enter into this type of situation. Only worry about phase alignment on things like lining up a bass DI and a bass mic, and even then it ay not be necessary.
 
By all means line up the transients and see if you like the effect...it can also sometimes work to offset them by just a small amount (not enough to be two distinct sounds, just a slight "stretch" on the thump).

However, as Track Rat says, phase doesn't come into this since it's two totally different sources. You can only match a phase relationship if you have exactly the same source miked from two different places (and you don't always want to do this anyway as it can be slight differences in phase that give you positioning information in the stereo field).
 
I agree with the above, but I'd add that the easiest and best thing is often to just re-record.
If it's more than the odd note here and there, you have a bad take.
 
Hey guys,
thanks for your answer so far.
Rerecording is not an option here, as the bassist simply is not uber tight.
Won't get any better.
But I don't think phase does not matter here,
I mean if I align a transient that goes 'up' first with another transient that goes 'down' first, I loose a whole lot of speaker excursion at this point.
Or is this a wholly theoretical thing with no relevance to real live whatsoever?
(I'm good at that kind of brain knots, mind you...)
 
Hey guys,
thanks for your answer so far.
Rerecording is not an option here, as the bassist simply is not uber tight.
Won't get any better.
But I don't think phase does not matter here,
I mean if I align a transient that goes 'up' first with another transient that goes 'down' first, I loose a whole lot of speaker excursion at this point.
Or is this a wholly theoretical thing with no relevance to real live whatsoever?
(I'm good at that kind of brain knots, mind you...)
You are not wrong. Especially if you are purposely aligning those transients, they will pull against each other just like you have described. It can and does happen. Also, if the bass is playing a note that is very close to the fundamental of the bass drum you could have some general bass loss, or at least weirdness.

I think that folks are saying it's not an issue because in "real life" it would be completely accidental for those transients or the fundamentals would line up that closely. Even the tightest rhythm section will be off just that little bit, and a different little bit on each hit, so that it becomes difficult to predict the interaction. But...

...the wavelengths down in this area are so long that there is a lot of "wiggle room" in there. The waves don't have to be exactly 180 degrees out of phase to get noticeable cancellation. That whole half period between 90 and 270 will knock down the total perceived level by some amount. If one of them has "absolute polarity" opposite the other, then it's -90 to 90 that will cause loss. At 50Hz (what, G#?), that half cycle lasts for 5ms.

I posted earlier in a bit of a hurry, so I left out the part where any significant bleed from the bass into the drum tracks (if they were recorded in the same room) will make the whole thing an even bigger mess.

It has taken me a lot longer to type this than it would have taken you to flip the polarity on one of the tracks and actually hear if it helps. There are good reasons to try it, especially with low end instruments.
 
I'm all about not being uber tight.... :)

Simply aligning transients doesn't always work either. I find when going through bass tracks, that the wave form might not depict where the beat is. I see the wave form ramping up in amplitude at the beginning of the first note of a measure and it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish exactly where the note starts. So, I nudge all over the place and give a critical listen to see if it's tight.

If I have one take on the bass, which for me is common, I will splice the bass track and nudge every verse and chorus.

On the other point you're asking about. Don't confuse up and down transients with phase. Those transients are short durations of an oscillating signal. It's the relationship of the oscillations from one track to another that determines phase. And... if the tracks do not have the same signal, then you don't have to worry about phase. Put another way, phase is a microscopic issue, transients are a macroscopic issue. So if your transient goes up while your kick transient goes down, it's still good.
 
Simply aligning transients doesn't always work either.

Exactly....and as has been said, it can actually sound worse than if the transients are a little off. When the transients are a little off, it can still be very tight but can actually fatten up the sound. Also there is a difference in the combined sound, depending on which of the two is ahead or behind.
Try it with just a single Kick beat and Bass note. Get them perfectly lined up with the transienets...then nudge one of them a hair forward and compare....then put it back again in line, and then this time nudge it forward a hair and compare.
It can make a big difference in the combined sound, one way or the other.

I just got done cutting up a Bass track....not so much for the need to make it uber tight, but more so to clean up some of the fret/string buzz noise on the note tails, and since I already have it cut up, I'll also tighten things up as needed in some spots, relative to the Kick drum. I do this manually, and not with any automated "snap" process, and purely "by eye" and without being "zoomed in" too close...so yeah, a little work, but it comes out more "real" that way, and there is still a natural randomness to the interaction of the Bass and Kick.
 
I'm all about not being uber tight.... :)

Simply aligning transients doesn't always work either. I find when going through bass tracks, that the wave form might not depict where the beat is. I see the wave form ramping up in amplitude at the beginning of the first note of a measure and it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish exactly where the note starts. So, I nudge all over the place and give a critical listen to see if it's tight.

If I have one take on the bass, which for me is common, I will splice the bass track and nudge every verse and chorus.

On the other point you're asking about. Don't confuse up and down transients with phase. Those transients are short durations of an oscillating signal. It's the relationship of the oscillations from one track to another that determines phase. And... if the tracks do not have the same signal, then you don't have to worry about phase. Put another way, phase is a microscopic issue, transients are a macroscopic issue. So if your transient goes up while your kick transient goes down, it's still good.
;) Yep. Sometimes there's a fairy obvious 'point that indicates the note beginning, but not necessarily.
 
Hey guys,
thanks for your answer so far.
Rerecording is not an option here, as the bassist simply is not uber tight.
Won't get any better.
But I don't think phase does not matter here,
I mean if I align a transient that goes 'up' first with another transient that goes 'down' first, I loose a whole lot of speaker excursion at this point.
Or is this a wholly theoretical thing with no relevance to real live whatsoever?
(I'm good at that kind of brain knots, mind you...)

I think the issue is down to semantics. "Phase" can only apply to the signal from a single sound source, not two different instruments. Phase problems on that single sound source occur if it's recorded via two microphones in different locations which can lead to various comb filtering effects.

In your case, you simply want to adjust the timing of two signals for "maximum thump". As several of us have said, simply aligning any transients you see might not result in the most effective sound , particularly because a bass drum and a bass guitar produce their sounds in completely different ways. Rise and decay times for each kick or note will vary and the most effective combination can really only be determined by sliding the alignment at little at a time and listening.

The other thing it occurs is that we should ask how you're monitoring? Do you have studio monitors or monitors plus sub that go down low enough to give you an accurate representation of what you're actually mixing? If the latter (monitors plus sub) is the crossover frequency set properly to get the best out of things.
 
The other thing it occurs is that we should ask how you're monitoring? Do you have studio monitors or monitors plus sub that go down low enough to give you an accurate representation of what you're actually mixing? If the latter (monitors plus sub) is the crossover frequency set properly to get the best out of things.
I'm monitoring without a sub, on small ported monitors, in a room with objectionable acoustics,
so for low end evaluation I go with open AKG headphones which I know very well.


simply aligning any transients you see might not result in the most effective sound, particularly because a bass drum and a bass guitar produce their sounds in completely different ways. Rise and decay times for each kick or note will vary and the most effective combination can really only be determined by sliding the alignment at little at a time and listening.

Will do, sir, thanks for your input.
editing this goes pretty slow, as there is soo much to clean up,
so I will correct this mess, nudge the finished track a little, flick the polarity switch a few times and call it a day.

Thanks for your kind answers in here,
have nice holidays and a merry Christmas or whateve floats your boat!
 
But I don't think phase does not matter here,
I mean if I align a transient that goes 'up' first with another transient that goes 'down' first, I loose a whole lot of speaker excursion at this point.

The relation ship won't be consistent.
If you make two peaks compliment each other, what's to say the next two peaks will even look vaguely similar?

I wouldn't over think it.
Either get a better bassist, or just very roughly pull the off-notes into place.
 
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