Allen & Heath ZED 22FX mixer for home rec. re bus compression, stereo channels etc.

Thrip

New member
Allen & Heath ZED 22FX mixer for home rec. re bus compression, stereo channels etc.

A "Sorryfull" Newby's quest in better understanding the Allen & Heath's ZED 22FX analogue mixer, (with the FMR-RNC compressor in home recording applications);

I have bought this new analogue Allen &Heath ZED 22FX mixer -that for various reasons was advised & then convinced to get for my recording assembly. (It seemed as much mixer as I could afford.)

When I was first purchasing said mixer (as "sorryfull newby) I wasn't quite clear about this device being principally a "performance mixer". I was originally told that I could record through the two Mains and the FOUR Auxiliaries and still access the mixers EQ & FX, -it turned out that only the two Mains & THREE Auxes work this way. -So I also purchased 24 "HOSA DOC-106 insert adaptors" -direct insert patch cables to maximize my recording approach options, (I won't be able to access the mixers EQ or FX when recording by this "jumpered" insert means).

The A&H ZED 22FX operational manual hasn't been much help, so I've lately had the fellow from the music store (who sold me the Allen & Heath ZED 22FX analogue mixer & FNR-RNC compressor) come over to walk me through a few things. -Although I'm still far from completely understanding the mixer he did shed a bit of light re the Gain settings on meters etc., BUT I'm still much in the dark re the auxiliary sends & buses of the mixer.

According to the fellow from the music store, there doesn't seem to be much potential for "bus compression" or "bus mixing" with this particular mixer. -although the manual definitely says that it does have 4 buses, 3 auxiliary buses & 1 internal FX bus. -As well when asking about the ZED 22FX three stereo channels, he said that these were for stereo electronic instruments such as electric pianos or drum machines...

*I've got to figure, -that with 3 stereo channels and 3 auxiliary buses, something in the nature of BUS MIXING & BUS COMPRESSION may be possible by routing recorded tracks into one of the three stereo channels by way of the auxiliaries. The fellow from the store seemed to think that this would lead to a "Feed-back Loop" and risk damaging equipment.

NOTE: CONCERN ABOUT "FEEDBACK LOOPS" REOCCURS WHEN CONSIDERING "EFFECTS LOOPS" RE VARIOUS APPLICATIONS WITH THE FMR-RNC COMPRESSOR & THE A&H ZED 222FX ANALOGUE MIXER;
As I'm working with a small analogue mixer -it's very likely that this FMR-RNC compressor will be a natural, (-like the Mackie 1604VLZ mentioned in the "RNC Quickstart" it has the main out has left and right insert points)

I'm a bit confused re the normal Insert jacks of the A&H ZED 22FX mixer -and the mixers main outs that have left and right insert points. -Apparently I had been as well confused re the unbalanced RNC-RNC compressor/Allen & Heath ZED 22FX hook-up -esp. with respects to the simple aspects of tip, ring, & sleeve of the TRS connectors. -this was partly because of the need to use the jumpered "Hosa-Docs 106" Direct Outs to Insert cables etc.

Basically I need to know how to hook this RNC with the Allen & Heath mixer to do;

(1.) track recording compression;

As I now understand it from my music store guys walk through, -Track recording with the FMR-RNC & the A&H ZED 22FX can be achieved by either connecting the RNC with a TRS/TRS cable from one of its IN-PUTs to the mixer Channel's Insert jacks while recording, (-or the mixers main outs left and right insert points ?? -this I'm still unclear about...).

(2.) post recording/ outboard effect device compressing -using the RNC in an "effects-loop";

As well,-I understand from my music store guys walk through that, Post recording/ outboard effect device compressing -using the RNC in an "effects-loop", can be simply accomplished by firstly recording a dry track & then connecting the RNC with a TRS/TRS cable from its IN-PUT to the mixers Channel's Insert jacks and then make your various experimental compression settings while playing back the recorded track.

(3.) bus compression -would this seem to me to likely involve the mixers mains TRS left & right insert points?

(4.) MIX compression should in theory involve hooking the (unbalanced) FMR-RNC stereo compressor into either the two Mains OR the two Mains TRS left & right insert points, and then connecting the stereo compressor into the audio recorder,...-but how best I do this to avoid "Feed-Back Loops" ?

I'm not sceptical about the music store guys concern of "FEEDBACK LOOPS" when plugging the FMR-RNC into the mixers main outs left and right insert points in order to achieve BUS COMPRESSION -but I also sense a risk of such FEED BACK LOOP problems with his suggestion for the connecting of the RNC with a TRS/TRS cables from its IN-PUTs into the mixer's main outs left and right insert points for Tracking compression (??) ...

Because the music store guy was wrong about the number of auxes that I could record with in the beginning with this A & H ZED 22FX (& they got the unbalanced stereo RMR-RNC compressor wrong re wiring too) -as well as the question of bus mixing & the auxes & 3 stereo channels with the mixer -I think I need clarifications & other opinion about it all.

(1.) & (2.) re TRACK recording compression & the Post recording/ outboard effect device compressing -using the RNC in an "effects-loop" seem to be pretty much figured out, (-aside from the idea that I can also Track record with the mixers main outs left and right insert points -which seem to perhaps risk a "Feed-Back Loop") ;

*BUT the way of BUS & MIXING compression with this FMR-RNC (or other compressors & anything else) still remains dubious to me.

I really need to know more about how to use the three stereo channels and auxiliaries with this mixer.


Can any one shed any light on these Allen & Heath ZED 22FX questions ?


Thank you for your time and consideration,

Thrip
 
What is your intended methods here? To multi track analog into multiple A/D interface- not use the USB?
Later mix on it?
Go to page 14 of the manual ('Block Diagram)
Do it
:listeningmusic:
Now, you've basically bought a stereo mixer + a few aux-output-dedicated options.
All the auxes are post eq BTW -some pre and some post fader.
For track ('channel') insert out' recording you'd have to go out of the insert, into the RNC (one or a stereo' pair only at a time- RNC is not dual mono.
The RNC can also be inserted into the main stereo bus for tracking (a mix of live inputs, or one track :eek: or the same for mix. No 'feedback problems here- unless you happen to send the monitor mix (from the recorder) back into the stereo mains- that's a loop'.
That's about it.
Um, presuming you're dead set on Out-o The Box'.. this ain't exactly the platform to build on.
Take the mixer back, regroup. :)
 
Do you have ANY live use for this mixer, or it strictly for recording?
I believe you are limited to only recording 2 (stereo - left & right) separate signals at one time thought it's USB (or mains) outputs.

If this is only for recording, you'd do a lot better bringing it back and getting a dedicated audio interface.
Why are you set on tracking with compression? In-the-box recording offers many options - including lots of very good compression plugins, but you could also 're-amp' and send recorded tracks back out to the RNC
 
Just one point. "Feedback" an uncontrolled oscillation, is possible with almost any mixer if you really try!

However it will not damage any of the internal circuitry (certainly not an A&H!) but it MIGHT damage a speaker, especially a tweeter. Train yourself to always keep main faders down when fooking about and bring them up slowly. Oh yes! LOUD feedback will bugger your hearing for an hour or so!

Dave.
 
RE A&H ZED 22FX & FMR-RNC;

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to track/record & compress with (the unbalanced FMR-RNC) through the Main L & R Inserts -that are situated beside the XLR Mains ?

-The thing is, these FMR-RNC are supposed to only be connected with TRS/TRS cables -when going into the desks ('channel') "Insert points", -I'm wondering if these Mains L & R Inserts are the same in this regard or whether I would best connect it there with TS/TS cables, (recommended for all other applications).

As well, re; "For track ('channel') insert out' recording you'd have to go out of the insert, into the RNC (one or a stereo' pair only at a time- RNC is not dual mono." -I wasn't aware that there would be a problem if I (say committed to an A/B recording and had mics on Channels 1 & 2) -that I couldn't just plug TRS/TRS cables into the RNC INPUTS and then into Channel 1 & 2s respective Inserts. Does that mean A/B Track compression with this rig will entail recording with one of the Stereo Channels? -and if so do I need to use the TS/TS cables for this ?

With the included Sonar Cakewalk program, (that comes with the ZED 22FX) I suppose I will be able to make the 3rd aux bus, and/or 3rd Stereo Channel into a kind of Digital Bus by way of the mixers USB connection where I could feed audio in through a keyboard controller, from a computer's sound library/engine, (that I should also be able to mix in, but I'm not quite clear about all this yet).
The 3rd Aux seems for the USB, -however the 1st & 2nd Aux Buses 'should' be able to be used for some rudimentary bus mixing -if not bus compression. I most need clarity about that aspect.

Thank you for your time and consideration,
Thrip
 
It sounds like you have a misunderstanding of how inserts and the cables that go into them (and out of them) work. You will likely be far better off with a dedicated interface for the computer, like mjb photos said. I'm not sure what your on about with the keyboard controller business. You can keep the mixer and integrate it into the rig, of course. I use one to input electric guitars and for monitoring. And, I'll ask this too: What's with the idea about compressing things? One common mistake made by newbies is they think that one has to compress early and often and everywhere. Compression should be the last thing you're worried about right now.
 
..I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to track/record & compress with (the unbalanced FMR-RNC) through the Main L & R Inserts -that are situated beside the XLR Mains ?
Better for what?
If you want to do stereo compression of your stereo main mix- that's your ticket.
If you want compression on a single track- or a stereo pair of tracks, you can do it there- if it's more convenient or something that way. But it means nothing else can be in the the main mix!

-The thing is, these FMR-RNC are supposed to only be connected with TRS/TRS cables -when going into the desks ('channel') "Insert points", -I'm wondering if these Mains L & R Inserts are the same in this regard or whether I would best connect it there with TS/TS cables, (recommended for all other applications).
They're the same- 'channel inserts and the main inserts; a single TRS x TRS per side, or.. a TRS x dual TS per side, or the 'one click in' as a direct out' (if the mixer does this) with a TS x TS, then compressor out to your record input.

.. Does that mean A/B Track compression with this rig will entail recording with one of the Stereo Channels? ..
It means when you put two things through a 'stereo' compressor the louder one drives the compression- for both.
(It's actually the sum of both- but that's the idea)
 
Firstly regarding Tim's Q; "What's with the idea about compressing things? One common mistake made by newbies is they think that one has to compress early and often and everywhere. Compression should be the last thing you're worried about right now." -At this time I'm just trying to understand how to use the mixer & the compressor that I've got in all the various ways that are possible.

I'm now thinking in terms of using one of the mixers Stereo Channels (with the L & R line inputs) for the FMR-RNC compressor -as it is -a "Stereo Compressor". -As to what Mixit & Arcaxis said about the compressor not being a "Dual Mono", -well that opened up a big can of worms, -I ended up following through a long gearslutz thread re Stereo compression vs Dual Mono Compression -a May 3rd 2006 thread started by gearslutz "Mixxed Up" actually entitled, "Dual Mono v Stereo Compression", (i can recommend reading it). -The more I'm getting my head around this Dual Mono/Sterteo Compression issue the less I like the idea of stereo compression, -I'm even wondering what applications there could really be where I would find an advantage to it, (can anyone point to advantageous stereo compressing cases or senerios?) I always think of 'stereo' as a matter of L R sound placement, NOT L/R dynamic sameness. When I get the money for it I do believe I'm going to invest in two FMR-PBC-6As and link em so opting for dual mono.
*It may be of some interest that from much careful email-questioning with FMR in Texas I learned that one can safely do "minimal signal chain" recording with the unbalanced FMR-RNC -going with mic, pre-amps & audio recorder. -It turns out that all one needs to do is: Connect the pre-amps unbalanced output into the RNC input with TS-TS cable. Then connect the audio recorder to the RNC outs with a TRS-TRS, (actually in my case with one of the TRS connecters of the DB-25/TRS 8 fan & core cable coming out of the recorder). -As the manual clearly stated "not" to hook the compressor up with TRS/TRS cables unless going into a mixers Inserts, -I was a bit slow in getting this approach. *This makes me think that I may as well be able to hook my FMR-RNC to one of the ZED 22FX Stereo Channels in this way too.

I finally found someone who retails Allen & heath & who was a bit familiar with the ZED 22FX -that told me that I will indeed be able to "Bus Mix" & do "Bus Compression" through any of the mixers 3 Auxes, -He said I could load a maximum of 8 Channels per Aux Bus.
-Although I've also been reading articles -such as Tweakheads.com, "The Classic Analog Mixers -choosing a mixer" & "Types of Analog Mixers for a Computer Recording Setup" -that cite all manner of A & H mixers that'd be great -but not the ZED 22FX. I can only import 2 channels or tracks into my mixer from the USB connection -which may be OK -if I can mix a few things together "In the Box" before hand -with the accompanying Sonar Cakewalk program. I'm truly a newby with that stuff....

What I really need the most is more direction RE Mixing or Mix-Downs with this ZED 22FX -at this time my audio recorder only has 16 tracks.
Thanks,
Thrip
 
RE Possible application for "Stereo Compression";

-As to what Mixit & Arcaxis said about the compressor not being a "Dual Mono", -well that opened up a big can of worms, -I ended up following through a long gearslutz thread re Stereo compression vs Dual Mono Compression -a May 3rd 2006 thread started by gearslutz "Mixxed Up" -actually entitled, "Dual Mono v Stereo Compression", (I can recommend reading it). -The more I'm getting my head around this Dual Mono/Stereo Compression issue the less I like the idea of stereo compression, -I'm even wondering what applications there could really be where I would find an advantage to it, (can anyone point to advantageous stereo compressing cases or scenarios?) Thrip

I've recently been reading about the great importance of mixing the Bass & Kick Drum tracks properly so that they don't detract from each other, (Fat Bass/thin Kick or Fat Kick/thin Bass EQing were mentioned among the various ways to handle the problem). -But as well a very interesting technique involving compression was outlined where either the Bass or the Kick were put through the Side-chain of the compressor -thus pulling the Bass back a bit when the Kick comes in. (Although I'v been appraised of reports re the FMR-RNC not being so very good for Bass compression *I notice that the FMR-RNC Stereo compressor that we were discussing does have a "Side-Chain".
-Is this perhaps one of the times that such a Stereo Compressor may be employed to some advantage ?
 
RE Possible application for "Stereo Compression";

RE Possible application for "Stereo Compression";

Quote Originally Posted by Thrip View Post
-As to what Mixit & Arcaxis said about the compressor not being a "Dual Mono", -well that opened up a big can of worms, -I ended up following through a long gearslutz thread re Stereo compression vs Dual Mono Compression -a May 3rd 2006 thread started by gearslutz "Mixxed Up" -actually entitled, "Dual Mono v Stereo Compression", (I can recommend reading it). -The more I'm getting my head around this Dual Mono/Stereo Compression issue the less I like the idea of stereo compression, -I'm even wondering what applications there could really be where I would find an advantage to it, (can anyone point to advantageous stereo compressing cases or scenarios?) Thrip
I've recently been reading about the great importance of mixing the Bass & Kick Drum tracks properly so that they don't detract from each other, (Fat Bass/thin Kick or Fat Kick/thin Bass EQing were mentioned among the various ways to handle the problem). -But as well a very interesting technique involving compression was outlined where either the Bass or the Kick were put through the Side-chain of the compressor -thus pulling the Bass back a bit when the Kick comes in. (Although I'v been appraised of reports re the FMR-RNC not being so very good for Bass compression *I notice that the FMR-RNC Stereo compressor that we were discussing does have a "Side-Chain".
-Is this perhaps one of the times that such a Stereo Compressor may be employed to some advantage ?
 
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