4 outputs for gigs

D

DaveRook

New member
I know this site is called HomeRecording, but I'm doing this at home although the end result will be for live local gigs (hope it's on topic).

We use a backing track in the band. At the moment, we play the backing track through an MP3 player, with the 'click' in the left speaker, and the music in the right. We then use a headphone amplifier to provide both click and music to the drummer (meaning when he plays he cannot hear the rest of the band).

We then send a mono sound out to front of house. This is not idea.

I'd love to upgrade my setup. I am aware I can buy a laptop and a USB 4 channel I/O which will then let me provide better mixes and most importantly, a stereo output to FOH (which is the goal) but I'm curious if there is a cheaper alternative. I assume I can buy a cheap Windows 8.1 tablet (I've seen a few for about £60) and a USB audio interface which supports 4 outputs for about £120. This means I could run something like Audacity/Cubase etc and have the desired effect for less than £200 but, that's a lot of cable and things which could go wrong.

My searches to find a magical tablet which has these 4 outputs built appears to prove it doesn't exist.

Are there any other alternatives?
 
I can see where your problem would be. It's not in the cabling or the idea, but the budget, and possibly the choices. I would find a fast Win 7 machine (stability), Native Instruments KA6 (low latency) and probably Ableton Live (there's a reason it's called "Live"). Strip the computer down to brass tacks and no frills, no internet, no LAN and tennis shoe network your soundtracks to it via stick or something that can be scanned before transfer.

Very few recorders have 4-track output. The Tascam DP-24SD is one, with a $400 price tag, it might be what you're looking for.
[h=1][/h]
 
There's no reason you can't do this with a robust mixer and what you currently have. You just don't know how to use the mixer/see the possibilities (?). For that it's unlikely a single thread or me spending the next two hours composing a response will answer all possible questions or scenarios. [maybe another member is unemployed and has that experience/time to dedicate] Google does seem to have a good variety of results on the first page of a search, depending on your exact experience, issues, and requirements.

With something like this you can route everything you need plus send a stereo mix to the FOH [if you need more inputs, simply get the model with more inputs]:

Behringer: XENYX 1002

You may want to spend more time on the backing track, mix the click into the music and have it sit as a stereo counterpart, or learn to use just a click, or no backing track at all! [practice?] I'm only guessing how you're implementing the backing/click track, as there's a lot about your implementation you haven't posted.

Fwiw, Sound on Sound's forum should also be considered as a resource for questions/answers:

Forum - Main Forums : Live Sound & Performance
 
+1 for the KA6. It is the only interface I would trust live (well, ok, RME!) .

The interface provides 4 discrete, balanced outputs and I would say "balanced" is very useful in a live situation.

Dave.
 
Pinky said:
There's no reason you can't do this with a robust mixer and what you currently have.
Click to expand...
???
If you actually want discreet stereo (2 independent tracks) and a discreet click (lead ins, and places where the backing tracks drop out for a bit in the middle of the song, and you don't want the audience to hear the click), then you need at least 3 fricking outputs from whatever is playing the backing tracks. Period.

You can try to argue that the click should be mixed in with one or the other stereo channels, or to just throw the whole thing out, but I (and many others) would argue that you're wrong, and completely not helping. I personally would argue that the whole stereo thing is kind of silly since most live PAs are going to run mono anyway, and especially in a bigger room stereo is pretty much undesirable. Again, though, the OP asked for this, so lets try to help him get it.

You need an interface with at least 3 outputs. 4 probably works better. Send 1+2 (stereo backing tracks) to the FOH and 3+4 (stereo backing mixed with click) to the drummers headphone amp. If the interface had its own software mixing/routing thing, you might be able to forgo the headphone amp by mixing the click into whichever pair feeds its own headphone output and sending just backing tracks to the other pair. You shouldn't need an external mixer, and you probably don't even need any kind of splitter. If you want to get away from phones, most of the time you could just send the 3 individual tracks (L, R, click) to the mixer and let them route them to FOH and/or stage monitors as necessary.

However, the stage snake in most houses is going to be XLR from stage to mixer, and if you hand them a 1/4" plug, they're going to want to run it through a passive DI in order to interface with that snake. This will defeat the purpose of having the balanced output that ecc83 is talking about as the 1/4" input will be (wired as) a TS unbalanced jack, and it will also attenuate the signal - further compromising S/N ratio. I would strongly suggest you grab a set of TRS male>XLR male cables so you can skip the DI altogether. Course, that might cause a ground loop... You could get 2 sets of those cables (maybe better a pair of short XLR-F > XLR-M "mic" cables as ground lift adapters) and cut the shield connection at one end or another, or you might get yourself a cheap dual passive DI and hack it to remove the transformer, connect TRS>XLR through and use the ground/shield lift. That's a bit more ambitious, but not that difficult of a DIY project.
 
Pinky said:
You may want to spend more time on the backing track, mix the click into the music and have it sit as a stereo counterpart, or learn to use just a click, or no backing track at all! [practice?] I'm only guessing how you're implementing the backing/click track, as there's a lot about your implementation you haven't posted.
Click to expand...

Ummm, there really isn't anything about his implementation that he didn't post. He is using an MP3 player with click on the left and music on the right. The right side goes to front of house and both the click and the music go to the drummer through a headphone amp. That's all there is to it.

All he want's is more outputs, so he can send a stereo mix to front of house, while still feeding the drummer a separate mix.

AS for the actual question: I did a quick search for anything I could think of that might be able to do it. I came up with nothing better than a computer of some sort with an interface.
 
Still think the DP24S would be cheaper, but maybe there's a reason it's not being considered?

EDIT
Well, maybe because you'd have to get a converter from RCA to XLR...but that shouldn't be a huge worry if it happens with the unbalanced RCA running short length?
 
I would think outside the box and buy a second hand Akai MPC1000, you can put a large memory card or even a hard drive in it. It has multiple outs, then you can have a wav or mp3 stereo and a click and assign them to different outs. They are made for live performance and are as solid as a rock, no crashes on stage. I have used on tour and it was great. In fact if you got one I think you will find that you will do even more with it.

P.S. I hate computers on stage.

Alan.
 
Yes Ashcat, I too thought the OP needed at least 3 discrete channels.

I take the "XLR on a snake" point but a few 300mm TRS-XLR adaptors should not be hard to make.

Ground loops? Well the KA6 is bus powered so if the OP has the presence of mind to get a PSU for the laptop that is earth free that sorts most situations. There is the possibility of the output lines tying "kit to kit" earths so one stereo isolator box might be handy or make a pair of adaptors with the XLR pin one lifted (fit a 1nF cap for a proper job).

That Akai looks a possibility but definitely needs earth isolators (IEC mains in) IMHO.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
That Akai looks a possibility but definitely needs earth isolators (IEC mains in) IMHO.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Never had a problem with the akai, unlike my laptop, the akai is designed for live on stage use, unlike laptops.

If using a laptop there are a number of usb to isolated balanced outs designed for live use on the market now.

Alan
 
Not on stage but in live theatre I use a laptop with external interfaces (I have two USB ones and a Firewire but none have the output configuration you want) and they've been perfectly reliable. I will say that I'm pretty scrupulous about keeping my sound laptop a "clean" install and don't clutter it with needless programmes.

However, two conflicting thoughts...

First, be careful about using a stereo mix live. Very few venues support this properly--all too often the majority of the audience will hear one side or the other but not both. For this reason, mono is fairly standard in the live scene.

Second, if you DO still want to go stereo, instead of using a standard DAW for playback, have a look at some of the software specifically designed for live playback...there are a number depending on your needs. For example, I use one called Show Cue System that lets me build very detailed playlists and also have some things stored on hot keys for random playback. It can also take MIDI triggers for cues or work with timecode. Whether or not this works for you depends on your needs but there are things that can be faster than loading files into a DAW each time.
 
Bobbsy said:
be careful about using a stereo mix live. Very few venues support this properly--all too often the majority of the audience will hear one side or the other but not both. For this reason, mono is fairly standard in the live scene.
Click to expand...

I actually made a proper stereo to mono summing box just to overcome this when I was touring the AKAI live. Usually they just take the left and right and centre the 2 channels at the desk, but often we got the old "we only have this many channels" when turning up at gigs, so I made my own summing box so we could sum to 1 channel.

Alan.
 
"Never had a problem with the akai"

Waiting for that Al! Just because you have not does not mean others won't. It is the very nature of ground loops that they are unpredictable as to equipment and site. Anything with an earth connection is a potential (Boom! Boom!) problem.

Dave.
 
ashcat_lt said:
You can try to argue that the click should be mixed in with one or the other stereo channels, or to just throw the whole thing out, but I (and many others) would argue that you're wrong, and completely not helping. I personally would argue that the whole stereo thing is kind of silly since most live PAs are going to run mono anyway, and especially in a bigger room stereo is pretty much undesirable. Again, though, the OP asked for this, so lets try to help him get it.
Click to expand...

Sometimes the proper "help" is explaining why what they want to do is wrong or needs modifying in the first place. If not, then you (and others) shouldn't have even mentioned mono anywhere in your posts. *Holds up mirror*

Until the OP comes back to this thread I won't be spending time explaining further [this is specific config discussion, not exactly useful to any other people so it's not time well spent unless the OP is actually still engaged].

As for mono - I've not gigged in a long time. I have house board mixes of a few shows from small venues that were in stereo (and were supposedly amplified that way to the audience). Knowing the venues, it's unlikely they were miles ahead of anywhere else in terms of engineer pay, ability, or equipment. Perhaps the OP also plays in an area where stereo live is also common. Someone also needs to tell all these signed acts touring they're doing it wrong, especially the ones touring with surround setups. lol [fwiw the Steven Wilson show I saw a few months ago in surround was awesome] Frankly, I didn't even know mono live mixing was the default thing. Almost every show big or small I've ever been to has been stereo.
 
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ecc83 said:
"Never had a problem with the akai"

Waiting for that Al! Just because you have not does not mean others won't. It is the very nature of ground loops that they are unpredictable as to equipment and site. Anything with an earth connection is a potential (Boom! Boom!) problem.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, true...but don't overplay the risk.

I've probably spent about 40 years plugging audio/video gear into other systems and can count on one hand the number of times we've had ground loop problems. Those times we could usually find some sort of logical source of the problem and fix it by changing cables, rearranging mains or adding isolating transformers or whatever. Of course it helped that it was generally pro gear being plugged into other pro gear, but still...

As for audio interfaces, I've been using computers for my theatre playback for 14 or 15 years, multiple shows per year, in a wide variety of venues. At the risk of tempting fate, I've yet to have a single ground loop problem. Now, I stick to balanced connections unless I have no other option, and get very particular about keeping the mains supply for gear neat and logical.

So...can we discount the possibility of ground loop problems? Of course not. But is the risk enough to not use computers and interfaces? Nope. Indeed, you might as well worry about plugging in a reel to reel or whatever...there's still a risk.
 
"So...can we discount the possibility of ground loop problems? Of course not. But is the risk enough to not use computers and interfaces? Nope. Indeed, you might as well worry about plugging in a reel to reel or whatever...there's still a risk. "

Think you have read me a bit wrongly there Bob? I AM ok with laptops etc. As for reel to reels? My Tascam is class ll insulation and so are B77s IIRC?

Dave.
 
Dave? Dave Rock?
Are you still with us?
How about some clarification, or confirmation that we're at least going through all this mental circus for your benefit, and not just ironing out how we'd do it?
 
Bobbsy said:
First, be careful about using a stereo mix live. Very few venues support this properly--all too often the majority of the audience will hear one side or the other but not both. For this reason, mono is fairly standard in the live scene.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^ this ^^^^^
stereo to the FOH is usually a bad idea. You think you're gonna get that lovely stereo sound you hear on your monitors but all that happens is people end up only hearing half the mix.
 
Lt. Bob said:
^^^^^^ this ^^^^^
stereo to the FOH is usually a bad idea. You think you're gonna get that lovely stereo sound you hear on your monitors but all that happens is people end up only hearing half the mix.
Click to expand...
Because they're too close to one speaker or the other. Else they're further away and it all just sums to mono anyway. There might accidentally be three or four people standing near the "sweet spot" where it sounds awesome, but only until they turn to grind on the hot chick next to them.


Edit to add - I've been using a PC for my entire live rig for a couple years now. For my band it runs our amp sims, vocal compressor, and a bunch of MIDI crap including a few VSTis at this point. I had some hiccups early on when I was running a laptop that just couldn't handle all of that processing without unacceptable latency, but I upgraded to a micro-desktop that almost fits in 2 rack spaces and I haven't had any trouble except with one plugin that is kind of questionable anyway. If all you're looking to do is play back three pre-recorded audio tracks and route them to 4 outputs, it should just work with about any computer made in the last 5-7 years.
 
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If it's simple playback without VSTi's or real time effects then it's even easier. Even the cheapest PC will cope fine. I have a six year old netbook that I load my shows onto once all the editing and programming is done and even that will do playback fine--useless for editing or anything involving effects though.
 
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