1 guitar, multiple amps preamps

[ecc83]

Did NOT mean to intimate sloth on your part Gregs!

No, what I meant was, many power switches are very inaccessible once kit is installed and (for some reason, beats me!) peeps want to switch things individually .
Then I understand the "switched power outlet" is almost unknown in the US? My gear you see is mainly on a single double 13amp outlet and so I just bang on the two socket switches and R&R!

I also have wireless switches on my TV and a Freeview hard drive recorder. The TV especially needs a "hard reset" quite often and the HDR now and again. Handy to be able to do this without grovelling in the dust and spiders behind the kit! Wife moves with great difficulty and has a lamp behind her again on a WS.

Me? Oh yes, lazy bastard!

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

Miroslav. You do not need to maintain a load on the amps in a patchbay.

You could just leave them O/C, quite safe so long as they are not driven but of course you cannot guarantee that, a buzz or "spike" can come along. This is why I said arrange the jacks to short the amp when no jack is inserted.

Yes, IF the bllx were driven out of the amp into a short the anodes would glow red and the valves ultimately fail (but one hopes for a properly valued HT fuse?!) but unlikely scenario?

I agree it would be attractive to give each amp a resistive load (via jack switch) but unless it was twice amp rating it could still accidentally open circuit.

Similarly the "remote" input jacks should be normal short as is the case on every guitar amplifier I have ever seen.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

The tube amp head , two combo amps, and all pre-amp level devices would all have a cable going into their respective input jacks and the other end of those cables would go into the backside of the patch bay....the amp head would then have it's output jack ran to the cabinet input , nothing unusual ...as you would any other scenario...I have a couple SM-57's and other mics to put in front of anything with a speaker, those would go into the mixer , as would the preamp level devices and from there to recording interface.....the real great thing for me, would be that all these very different sounds would be quickly patchable at the patch bay, not on the fly fast but close enough..I don't need on the fly either, but I know how I am, and when an idea takes hold in my brain sound and notewise, I have to act fast or it's gone LOL ...it would be like simply moving each amp/preamps input jack into my rack , which is at arms reach at my desk. Great!

I just had another nutty idea.....since my speaker cabinet for the amp head and two small amps are several feet away, what if I could yank the electronic guts out of the two amps, fabricate a rackable panel and mount the amp guts into a 2 or 3 space rack chassis (I've studied electronics, so know what would need to be done) ...use my drill press to accommodate the panel front for potentiometers, switches/etc, then run cables from the new chassis to what's left of the cabinet (small amps can record so great, so I would want to keep the speaker and box in tact for that , sans amp) , then I would have the amp controls at arms reach in the rack but the speakers far enough away to crank without killing my ears if I so choose, mic'd up and selectable via patchbay and then simply bring that fader up if I want to record it....the amp head is a small form factor tube king that sounds great...it's small enough to sit in the rack as well, on a shelf maybe...so all guitar sound options are right there, at hand...

All this ^^^^....so that instead of having to move your guitar cord from amp/pedal to amp/pedal...you are instead going to move a patch chord at a patchbay....?...and that speeds things up for you...?

OK.

The question you didn't answer is will all these amps and pedals and whatnot have specific settings on them...the same way, all the time...or will you be changing those settings between songs/sessions, and if so, how will you know in advance what settings you want to set for a given song in order to be able to switch between those setting quickly...?
I mean...any way you cut the cake...you STILL need to spend time at each of your devices fiddling with the knobs to dial in tones for that device, which most people do in real-time, as they are working on a track. You seem to want to preset all that in advance of any tracking...and then flip through it at a patchbay...?

Miroslav. You do not need to maintain a load on the amps in a patchbay.

You could just leave them O/C...

Not sure what "O/C" stands for...but if you mean on standby or with the volume knob off...then again , it requires the OP to have to make adjustments at the amp...which he seams to think is going to take too much time.

If an amp is connected to a ptachbay...and he wants to switch between tube amp heads and and cabs...you most certainly want to keep a load on that amp if you just want to "patch" between those devices quickly, and without touching the settings on the heads.
It's a recipe for disaster either way...because if you forget just one time to put the amp into standby...and you hit a chord not realizing that amp has no cab...

I would never run guitar amps/cabs/pedals on a patchbay...for a variety of reasons...with switching speed being the least of my concerns.
I mean...how the heck long does it take to move a guitar cable from one input to another?


Anyway...this whole thing is getting a but too abstract IMHO...so good luck to the OP with whatever he rigs up.

 

[ecc83]

All this ^^^^....so that instead of having to move your guitar cord from amp/pedal to amp/pedal...you are instead going to move a patch chord at a patchbay....?...and that speeds things up for you...?

OK.

The question you didn't answer is will all these amps and pedals and whatnot have specific settings on them...the same way, all the time...or will you be changing those settings between songs/sessions, and if so, how will you know in advance what settings you want to set for a given song in order to be able to switch between those setting quickly...?
I mean...any way you cut the cake...you STILL need to spend time at each of your devices fiddling with the knobs to dial in tones for that device, which most people do in real-time, as they are working on a track. You seem to want to preset all that in advance of any tracking...and then flip through it at a patchbay...?





Not sure what "O/C" stands for...but if you mean on standby or with the volume knob off...then again , it requires the OP to have to make adjustments at the amp...which he seams to think is going to take too much time.

If an amp is connected to a ptachbay...and he wants to switch between tube amp heads and and cabs...you most certainly want to keep a load on that amp if you just want to "patch" between those devices quickly, and without touching the settings on the heads.
It's a recipe for disaster either way...because if you forget just one time to put the amp into standby...and you hit a chord not realizing that amp has no cab...

I would never run guitar amps/cabs/pedals on a patchbay...for a variety of reasons...with switching speed being the least of my concerns.
I mean...how the heck long does it take to move a guitar cable from one input to another?


Anyway...this whole thing is getting a but too abstract IMHO...so good luck to the OP with whatever he rigs up.

The amp's output would be shorted and thus safe until the speaker is patched across. Yes, you COULD plug into the amp patch and leave the patch chord dangling but why would you? In any case amps can accidently be driven when "Open Circuit" (sorry, tech speak!) you just need to be careful.

In fact this is not the horror story it is often made out to be. An amp can be driven unloaded, gently and will suffer no harm. Drive it hard for tens of seconds and the valves will arc over. Keep it up and if the HT fuse does not pop you COULD bugger the output transformer but this is very rare in my experience* though there are some amps that are rather feeble in this respect I believe (some of the older Marshalls?).

I have rigged amps (mostly "ours"!) into switching systems where the speaker is flipped between amps a hundred times an hour for A/B test for voicing. In the course of testing many a time I have forgotten to plug in a load or speaker and the OPT has "sung" to remind me! The impedance selector was switched around for test with total impunity under drive. Yes! If you read the manual it will tell you ALL this is a no-no and the GREATEST CARE must be taken to load the amplifier correctly. This is lawyerspeak ass saving talk. Yes, you MIGHT destroy an amp that way but tis very unlikely.

*I had a 100watter that was driven so hard unloaded that all 4 EL34s were blown and the HT fuse black. A set of new bottles and bias and it met specc'. A full power play test showed it to be fine and it went out on artist loan never to be seen again.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

The amp's output would be shorted and thus safe until the speaker is patched across. Yes, you COULD plug into the amp patch and leave the patch chord dangling but why would you? In any case amps can accidently be driven when "Open Circuit" (sorry, tech speak!) you just need to be careful.

Yeah...I've accidentally disconnected cabs...though amp had no signal going through it...or volume was on low/off, and of course, nothing happened... but I've had two power tranny's go on two different amps over the last few years....neither of them had anything to do with a "no load" issue....but the fact that it cost me about $150 + shipping for each of them them to be replaced...always makes me consider that being careful is the easier and less expensive approach.

In the OP's scenario...of switching while playing/recording on the fly...there's a greater possibility of higher volumes and hot signals always being in play, so why tempt fate....I would rather use a purpose-made amp head switcher than a patch bay.

 

[ecc83]

Miro' mate! If the OP (or Greg) uses a patch bay they can't really swap amps/speakers whilst widdling, not enough hands.
I suppose they could hold a screaming feedback note and do it but then they deserve a broken amp! IMHO the second or so it would take to re plug would still not be long enough to kill an amp.

It would be the output transformer that could fail on a protracted, high level O/C drive. The PT MIGHT follow suit but only in a very badly designed amplifier with 16swg copper fuses!

I was back at the workshop today and they still get zero traff failures and must have sold 1,000s of amps by now.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

Miro' mate! If the OP (or Greg) uses a patch bay they can't really swap amps/speakers whilst widdling, not enough hands.

It's easy to forget what was patched and what wasn't before hitting that big power chord...
...I wasn't talking about simultaneously playing and switching.

There's the assumption that an amp connected to a patch bay is automatically going to "short" with no speaker load...but 1.) some amps don't do that by default anyway, and 2.) are you positive a typical patch bay would maintain that short if the amp did it?

I dunno...odds are it wouldn't fry a tranny straight out unless it was something really extreme...but with each situation, there could minor damage to the tranny coils from the flyback voltage, and over time or with repeated no-loads, the damage could be cumulative.
I mean...what's the real goal here...to tempt fate...or simply avoid any possible damage?

Anyway...people can go with whatever they think is right...I'm mostly wondering about this need for the OP to switch between so many devices on the fly while recording.

 

[guitz]

Anyway...people can go with whatever they think is right...I'm mostly wondering about this need for the OP to switch between so many devices on the fly while recording.

Again, it's NOT about spontaneously switching on the fly...This isnt' a performance...But I know from past experience having to stop playing and tear down a mic'd amp or replug a bunch of junk interrupts my flow ....I want to be able to sit down, and have all options at my fingertips at all times, with the least amount of effort to switch between them as inspiration hits, or other reasons..like I have a song with 3 different guitar parts , each using a different setup and I record one chorus/verse/refrain,etc,etc at a time , build that up, then need to switch back to setup A to write/record the next chorus/verse/refrain,etc,etc...constant repatching or setup/teardown can serioulsly cramp my style ...maybe I should explain to how I like to work..., the recording process for me is also the writing process....and I need to frequently switch back and forth between things as I'm writing them...it's probably not how most people record....they probably work up something and play it nearly start to finish before ever hitting the record button but for me the two are nearly one and the same...the germ of an idea gets recorded even before the tune is fully written and goes from idea to finished thing all in the DAW in a single project.

 

[ecc83]

It's easy to forget what was patched and what wasn't before hitting that big power chord...
...I wasn't talking about simultaneously playing and switching.

There's the assumption that an amp connected to a patch bay is automatically going to "short" with no speaker load...but 1.) some amps don't do that by default anyway, and 2.) are you positive a typical patch bay would maintain that short if the amp did it?

I dunno...odds are it wouldn't fry a tranny straight out unless it was something really extreme...but with each situation, there could minor damage to the tranny coils from the flyback voltage, and over time or with repeated no-loads, the damage could be cumulative.
I mean...what's the real goal here...to tempt fate...or simply avoid any possible damage?

Anyway...people can go with whatever they think is right...I'm mostly wondering about this need for the OP to switch between so many devices on the fly while recording.

I am not talking a standard patch bay but a set of boxes you make up and arrange the speaker jacks to short by default.

You can floor a V8 till the valves pop out the head, ya just don't!

Dave.