Please evaluate and post suggestions.

[dtwalters]

This is a quick and dirty recording of my daughter singing and playing acoustic guitar on the Leonard Cohen song Hallelujah. It was recorded using an AT2020 with Audacity for Windows 2.05. We want to record some of her own compositions to post on a web site she can refer people to. Please tell me what you think I can do to make these recordings sound as good as possible. Thanks for your input!

DTW

 

[jimmys69]

I would first suggest downloading Reaper. Audacity is a great audio editor but not really good for recording.

The vocals sound quite good, but some compression and reverb would make it better.

Some room treatment and purchasing an interface and better mic are also options to improve. It all comes down to your budget and how good you want this to sound. It is for your daughter, so....

 

[Steenamaroo]

Hi,
She has a really nice voice. There's a little bit of a country vibe in there.
Do you intend to stick with straight forward guitar and voice? Personally I would, but I'm just asking to be clear.

The main thing I notice is the ambience on the acoustic guitar. It's probably just the sound of your room and, I guess, it's less noticeable on the vocals because the mic would have been closer for vocal recording.
Perhaps you just used one mic for this whole recording?

There are a few things you can do, if you want a drier, closer sounding acoustic guitar.
If you're just using one mic, try two - That'd be the first thing.

If not, take a look at mic position. How far away was the mic? Is there room to move in a bit?
Room treatment helps a lot.
You don't need to go nuts and pre your room like Abbey Road. Even some heavy blankets hung up can make a decent enough difference.

Tell us more about your setup.

PS: No one's going to cringe over any of the above. If you just want to showcase her voice I think you've done a good job.

 

[dtwalters]

Thanks for your reply, jimmys69. I did download Reaper a few weeks ago and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm not sure how to set up the compression and reverb properly, but will continue to read and learn.

DTW

 

[dtwalters]

Thanks for your reply, Steenamaroo. We do plan to stick with guitar and voice. We will probably add some overdubbed harmony and possibly mandolin (or possibly not). The recording was done with only the 2020 and just one track. I do have a MXL 602s that I could use to record the guitar along with the 2020 for the vocal. She definitely wants to play and sing at the same time, though.

The setup is the AT2020 into a Mackie 402VLZ4 routed into a Thinkpad R51e laptop running Windows 7 via a Creative Audigy 2ZS notebook PCMCIA card. I don't mind upgrading this setup, but I think I should learn to get the best sound out of what I've got before getting more hardware. I like the idea of some room treatment, but it will have to be removable as this is being done in my living room.

DTW

 

[jimmys69]

Thanks for your reply, jimmys69. I did download Reaper a few weeks ago and am trying to learn how to use it. I'm not sure how to set up the compression and reverb properly, but will continue to read and learn.

DTW

Take note of Steeno's advice as well. Actually, he is quite good at the acoustic recording side of things. Way better than I. I am a rocker dood.

 

[jimmys69]

Thanks for your reply, Steenamaroo. We do plan to stick with guitar and voice. We will probably add some overdubbed harmony and possibly mandolin (or possibly not). The recording was done with only the 2020 and just one track. I do have a MXL 602s that I could use to record the guitar along with the 2020 for the vocal. She definitely wants to play and sing at the same time, though.

The setup is the AT2020 into a Mackie 402VLZ4 routed into a Thinkpad R51e laptop via a Creative Audigy 2ZS notebook PCMCIA card. I don't mind upgrading this setup, but I think I should learn to get the best sound out of what I've got before getting more hardware. I like the idea of some room treatment, but it will have to be removable as this is being done in my living room.

DTW

There is a forum here with much information about room treatment. Best learn everything you can before making a purchase.

 

[Steenamaroo]

In all honesty a creative soundcard is never going to be recommended around here, but you got pretty good results there.
Personally I'd definitely want to mic the guitar and voice separately (still live though). Stereo is nice for guitar but not essential. It's entirely up to you.

I think I'd pick up a little USB interface with two mic preamps built in. That's not going to cost much at all.
If you think there's even the slightest chance that you'll do stereo guitar + vocals live then pick up a tascam us1800.

It might look overkill at a glance but it's a great all rounder and 3 or 4 channel interfaces aren't all that common.

If you're happy with two mics in total then your current gear will probably do fine. Just remember to pan hard left and hard right whilst recording so that the vocal and guitar are kept separate in your recording software. (assuming the sound card only has stereo input)
You can centre pan them again in the digital domain.

Either way, separate micing and a bit of room dampening will make a massive difference.

 

[TripleM]

Very nicely sung. And well played.

The first thing I noticed was that there was a lot of frequency buildup around 500-1000hz. It's often referred to as "boxy" sounding. It gets most pronounced when she's singing louder. But I hear it on both the guitar and vocal. So I'm wondering if the problem is caused by your recording space. It might be helpful for you to describe the recording space - including room dimensions.

I would echo the advice you received to do the vocal and guitar on separate tracks - even if she doesn't want to. Maybe use this as a guide track and have her play and sing along to it. I'm thinking your recording space is not good sounding, and so I'd try to get the mic as close to the source as possible. Longer term, I'd work on the room's sound. But that's a big subject.

 

[dtwalters]

TripleM, thanks for your reply. I will re-record the song using two mics and a closer miking technique. I think I will do that twice, once using a AT2020 for the vocal and a MXL 602s for the guitar. Then I'll try using an SM58 for the vocal and an SM57 for the guitar. I have read that dynamic mics will pick up less of the room's sound. Do you think the dynamic microphone idea would be viable? We're not trying to make radio ready recordings but do want them to sound good on her web site. Do you think there is some kind of acoustic treatment for the room that could be easily set up for a recording session and then removed and stored? We are using the living room to record in, rectangular (maybe 11 X 12) with carpeted floor, two doorways, two windows, nine foot ceiling, a piano and two bookshelves. DTW

 

[rayc]

The mics you have are just fine for your set up and more.
I've only just bought an AT 2020 & quite like it. I have a couple of small diaphram condensors, a couple of medium ones like the AT and 4 different dynamics but for what I do that's overkill but also very much over time.
Dynamic might be OK but you won't know until you're using them - they'll take a lot of preamping compared to the condenser running on phantom.
Reaper is worth the effort to learn - I found it quite "intuitive".
Mic'ing an acoustic is quite a task and there're stickies in the forum about how. Vocals are similarly problematic.
The room you choose will amke a difference and there are a range of things to manage that from full bass trapping, 1st reflection and other damping down to buying one of those 1/2 cylinder screens to reduce reflections getting to the vocal mic.
the voice is nice, the playing is fine.
Separate micing will make things better as will some experimentation with placement within the living room (things like having her face a well stuffed bookshelf - even better if the books are of different lengths & widths etc).
Treatment is possible: make some sound screens/mid or bass traps on wheels (there are plans for this sort of stuff in the studio section & built right they'll address some bass, some reflection and can break up the symmetry of the room to deal with other reverb, bass build up, standing wave problems.) that can be put into place & then whisked away. A couple or four bass traps made from cylinders of Rockwool covered in fabric could be placed in corners for the session then removed.
Read more, post more and slowly, (not glacially mind you), things will come together.
You've made a much better start than I did & that's for certain.

 

[dtwalters]

I think I'd pick up a little USB interface with two mic preamps built in. That's not going to cost much at all.

I have read some opinions indicating that the mic preamps in some USB interfaces may be a little low on gain, particularly with dynamic microphones. My Mackie mixer has a preamp but also a couple of other gain stages which allows the volume to easilly reach -12 to -6 db while recording. Would it be a problem to plug the mixer into a USB interface to keep the signal high, or would that add excessive noise to the mix?

DTW

 

[dtwalters]

Any comments on my last question?

DTW

 

[jimmys69]

I have read some opinions indicating that the mic preamps in some USB interfaces may be a little low on gain, particularly with dynamic microphones. My Mackie mixer has a preamp but also a couple of other gain stages which allows the volume to easilly reach -12 to -6 db while recording. Would it be a problem to plug the mixer into a USB interface to keep the signal high, or would that add excessive noise to the mix?

DTW

This can be an issue with lower priced units. Like the Lexicon Alpha is not known to have much gain. Most above $150 tend to be in the range of 50-60 dB.

Yes, whenever you use another preamp on top of another, you will likely increase the noise exponentially. Especially when dealing with less than high end gear. If a lower price range interface does not have true line level inputs (which means they still run through the preamp section), it is not advised to run one preamp into another. It is also not a good idea to crank any input on an interface or mixer.

Make sure the specs on any interface you are looking at is clear about the input gain. Also, much depends on what you are recording. It won't matter so much if using an SM58 (dynamic) in front of a rocking Marshall cabinet. If you are trying to record whisper soft vocals with the same setup, it will be noisy and likely unusable.

Best to spend a bit of money on your link between you and the computer. Then start working on the room treatment.

 

[dtwalters]

I have been trying to re-record using two mics. I have the problem that during tracking the vocal can be heard only in the left headphone and the guitar can be heard only in the right. What am I doing wrong?

 

[jimmys69]

Recording to a 'stereo' track is likely your problem.

Setup with each DAW is different, but typically you will set up a mono input bus and designate it to a particular input of your interface. Then create a mono track and select the mono input that that track records from. If you record to a stereo track, likely the default stereo input thinks that input 1 is left, and input 2 is right.

I can't give specifics, but that is pretty much it.