Opinions on mic placement desired

Bigus Dickus

New member
OK, so this isn't exactly a mix. :) I started to just post in the mic forum, but this seems to be the place where people listen and give advice, so here goes.

This is a recording of 22 different mic placements (well, 11 with and without an acoustic damping "tent") for a grand piano. A vocal cue helps keep track of what placement you're listening to.

The music is the opening segment of Chopin's Premiere Ballade, and yes, I changed pedaling somewhere during this process... don't ask why, don't know why. Even though it's a simple passage, I only did one take at each placement, so don't knit-pick my playing too much. :)

The track is straight stereo recording, no gain/eq adjustments, no panning, no compression, no effects. The only thing I considered doing was adjusting gain so that the left and right channels were equivalent volume for each position, but I decided against it. Yes, there is some clipping on two or so placements - I left the preamp gain the same for each position, and though I tried to avoid clipping apparently some positions produced a hotter signal than the one I used for gain setting. It's annoying (it's only in a couple of spots though), but hopefully you can still make use of that segment anyway.

While I can pick out my "favorite," I'm very new to this, and I would certainly appreciate any and all comments. Perhaps there are things you can hear that would be a concern during reverb effects for example that I wouldn't even know to listen for. Also, comments on the general quality of the recording are more than welcome. I very easily could have overlooked something, or you might have suggestions on ways to improve the sound.

My personal opinion of most all of the positions is that the lower range doesn't seem to "sustain" well. Can't think of a better term for it, but maybe you'll hear what I'm trying to describe.

This is a 6" Baldwin in a smallish room with acoustical treatment on the walls and panels in two corners to try and remove as much parallel surfaces as possible. Odd tracks are recorded with the piano as is, even tracks are the same placement as the track before it with the addition of an acoustic damping "tent" over the piano. This tent was a very large, very thick and heavy down blanket, and it did quite a job of isolating the piano from the room (judging from the drastic reduction in volume produced).

Equipment:

Matched pair of soundroom Oktava MC012's with cardiod capsule and no pads.
DBX386 stereo mic preamp and A/D converter
A/D set to 24 bit 88.1 kHz, recorded using 32 bit floats
M-Audio DiO 2496 taking SPDI/F signal through coax.
Cubase SX

I have a list of precise mic positions, but I'll refrain from posting that until you have the chance at listening without the distraction of knowing where the mics were.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2316&alid=-1
 
Going through all 22 is a bit much to ask. :D

So I took on the first 12.

1-4 sounded similar. Not quite linaer, with too much mids and less defined (muddy?) lows/low-mids and hights. It just seemed somewhat exaggerated and irritating on some of the notes in the highest octave. But this set did have the most presence.

5 - This one had the most balance to me. As you transitioned between octaves, nothing really seemed to jump out or anything all of a sudden.

Not sure about 6 and 7. Seemed somewhat similar to 5 but with more exaggeration in the higher keys again?

8 - This had easily the "biggest" sound of the samples I listened to. Very pronounced lows and highs. Powerful sounding; not polite or subtle.

9 & 10 - Something sounds wrong. I don't like this at all.

11 & 12 - Better. Decent balance. Not great, but better.


My conclusion: 5 if you're looking for smoother, more subtle. 8 if you want more power and drama.
 
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I know 8 minutes is a bit much. :( I tried to keep the passage short, but by the time I had tried all the major placements I could think of it had piled up a lot of time.

I'm sure some others will take a look over the next few days, so hopefully I'll start to build a decent understanding for where I need to be headed.
 
How about cutting it down to 3-4 files?

What you're asking people to do is a pretty big undertaking. 22 different clips. Think about it. In order to critically listen, you'd probably want to spend at least two-three minutes on each clip. That would add up to about an hour or more after all 22 files. Are you going to pay us by the hour? :D :D

How many different ways can you really mic a piano?
 
It would be silly of me to even try, because I have a SUPER short attention span. I'm mainly posting here because I like the way it looks when my name shows up as the last reply on like, the first 10 threads.

:D
:D

sorry,
-the jerk
 
I've updated the comparison, and it's now less than 3:00 minutes in length with only 9 placements, based off of my listening and the comments I've received so far. Probably tomorrow, after I spend a bit more time listening, I can cut it down to the top three or four.

I'm leaning towards 4, 5, 12, and 17 & 18. I especially like 17 and 18 chessrock, and since you didn't get that far last time, what do you think of those?

I had removed 16, but after your opinion Kramer I'll go back and relisten. It was hard for even me to keep my attention span for 8 minutes, and I may have simply overlooked it. If someone has singled it out, it certainly deserves a closer listen.

Would it help at this point to post the corresponding mic positions?
 
Bigus Dickus said:
Any others willing to listen to the same segment 8 times in a row? :)
That sounds manageable...if it's down to 8 now.

brb

CHrIShaRrIS - ÛÑô¥£çþ懢€‡ŒŽµØѱŠ
 
I liked:

17 - for the low end
12 - for the high end
18 and 8 tied for best overall.

(I couldn't pick just one :D)

CHrIShaRrIS - ÛÑô¥£çþ懢€‡ŒŽµØѱŠ
 
w00t, down to 4 now and under 90 seconds, but I just posted a new file and left the 8 that were there for anyone who wanted to hear. Remaining are 4, 12, 17, and 18. :) I was going about it the wrong way at first... trying to pick my favorite out of 22. It was much easier once I realized I should just eliminate one or two choices each couple of times I listened. It's getting more diffiult now with these four - they each have their strengths.

I'm hoping chessrock will take a peek and 17 and 18, since he didn't make it that far last time. I also PM'ed Michael Jones, since he's had experience with micing his grand and I like the sound he got.

For those interested, here was my positioning list of all 22 original positions:

1. X/Y 90 deg, 10" back from damper felts, 6" above strings, middle C
2. X/Y 90 deg, 10" back from damper felts, 6" above strings, middle C, comforter
3. X/Y 90 deg, 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, middle C
4. X/Y 90 deg, 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, middle C, comforter
5. Wide spacing, 3 octaves G to G, 10" back from damper felts, 6" above strings
6. Wide spacing, 3 octaves G to G, 10" back from damper felts, 6" above strings, comforter
7. Wide spacing, 3 octaves G to G, 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings
8. Wide spacing, 3 octaves G to G, 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, comforter
9. Wide spacing, far end of bass section, back sound hole in treble
10. Wide spacing, far end of bass section, back sound hole in treble, comforter
11. Wide spacing, 3 octaves G to G, 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, facing backwards
12. Wide spacing, 3 octaves G to G, 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, facing backwards, comforter
13. One mic middle C 10" back from damper felts, 6" above strings, other mic under piano
14. One mic middle C 10" back from damper felts, 6" above strings, other mic under piano, comforter
15. One mic middle C 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, other mic under piano
16. One mic middle C 18" back from damper felts, 12" above strings, other mic under piano, comforter
17. X/Y at edge of lid
18. X/Y at edge of lid, comforter
19. X/Y at edge of half stick lid
20. X/Y at edge of half stick lid, comforter
21. X/Y out in room, half stick lid
22. X/Y out in room

"Comforter" means that a huge king-size very thick down comforter was draped over the open lid plus mics.

I find the trends in opinions interesting, and helpful. For instance, people liked 4, 8, 12, and 16, which all had in common that the mic(s) were further from the hammers and strings than other positions. One X/Y, two wide spaced at the same place just facing forward and rearwards, and a second with only one mic above in that position and the other below the piano.

Another trend (to my ears, and a few others) is that without the comforter the low end was "better" while adding the comforter muffled the low end a bit but had a clearer high end. That suggests to me that perhaps a compromise would be useful, such as where the comforter isn't covering the entire lid (which I suspect was damping resonance of the lid and thus some of the bass richness) but still covering the edge of the lid and draping over the mics to help remove room interaction.

I'm leaning towards 17 and 18, and perhaps trying the half draped comforter, but 4 and 12 still sound good as well.
 
To help me decide, I took the four remaining choices and adjusted gains so that they were more or less behaving the same. I thought 12 had the most level frequency response from lower octaves to the higher ones, so there is a slight eq boost on 4, 17, and 18 to bring them up closer to 12.

And, since there were X/Y and wide spaced choices, I panned L/R wide on all of them to get a feel for the stereo separation that will be important later (so I reckon, I still don't know what in the hell I'm doing :) ). 12 obviously has more separation, and a bit more feel for the lower register being on my left and higher on my right, but I'm not sure if I particularly like that. I had a hard time deciding which channel was L and R for number 4. I finally went with what I had written down, which I think now is still correct, but it was much more difficult to tell than the others. 17 and 18 both have a much better stereo effect and separation than I would have guessed, though they aren't in so much a lead anymore as they were before panning and gain adjustments.

I was about to cut 12 and keep 4, but after doing this I will probably do the opposite. 12 got a nice boost from the panning.

I realize I might well be talking to myself here, but sometimes that helps me sort my thoughts. :D
 
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